🇻🇳 Fonos 🎧: How this idea became Vietnam's largest audio platform

00:00:00: Everyone in Vietnam told us, hey it will not work because Vietnamese people don't pay for content.

00:00:05: Tapping into existing demand is way easier than creating new demand.

00:00:10: I feel like the more people you have...

00:00:13: ...the more

00:00:14: problem about people that we need to solve and stay away from the main problems of our product.

00:00:21: That's why we are trying to keep a team small.

00:00:25: Anything can do.

00:00:27: at the beginning I

00:00:29: told Swan like okay if we do something in this space, i will only do it or we should only do.

00:00:36: If We can get exclusive rights In the audiobooks area because then we have something defensible Then we Have Something We Can Build Around.

00:00:55: Hi five guys, this is Joel again from Vietnam as you can see in the background if You're following us on YouTube and as you guys know I'm really curious about growth.

00:01:12: And today on our money Monday We were talking about business growth.

00:01:15: And i went to vietnam To get to know swan and oscar these two nice people here?

00:01:20: They are founding a company or they found it already.

00:01:22: It's called phonos its kind of I would say Vietnamese version of Audible, but much cooler.

00:01:27: Of course a much bigger and more relevant And that was interested in learning.

00:01:31: how did they do this?

00:01:32: So what was the experience like to found a company in Vietnam?

00:01:35: How is it liked to find a company as a couple and also the product off course?

00:01:39: It's very interesting.

00:01:39: so yeah The two of you really happy to have here.

00:01:42: thanks for having us and That was a great introduction.

00:01:46: i don't think we're bigger than audible yet But my

00:01:48: heart you are

00:01:50: That all that counts.

00:01:52: yes Maybe take me into your history a bit.

00:01:55: I mean, as far as i learned Your name is polish but you're from Austria.

00:02:00: You are vietnamese.

00:02:01: how did all this start like?

00:02:02: How'd it come about?

00:02:04: I've been in Vietnam for over ten years now and Initially I was doing the digital nomad thing.

00:02:11: This was before The pandemic.

00:02:13: Before It Was Like Very Common.

00:02:16: So it was like more in the earlier days of digital nomadding and I spent some time across Asia working remotely from different places, working in marketing roles for tech companies.

00:02:28: And...I got tired of traveling after Bali-Malaysia.

00:02:32: Sounds really bad to go to Bali.

00:02:34: so sorry about

00:02:35: that!

00:02:35: Tough Time But i wanted to settle down one place a bit.

00:02:39: For some reason felt good.

00:02:42: at Saigon I just, the energy felt right to me at that point in my life and i decided oh let me stay here for longer.

00:02:50: There was also a pretty cool community of digital nomads here back then...I think it's gotten a bit weaker by now.

00:02:56: but Back Then It Was A Little Bit Of A Hubspot And That'S Where Eventually We Met where.

00:03:04: So Sun Was An Entrepreneur Here.

00:03:08: That Was She Can Share About It Herself But Running different companies.

00:03:13: Different more than one.

00:03:14: yeah, I'm I a Entrepreneur from the beginning and never worked for anyone always start.

00:03:21: my own business is small but it's very common in Vietnam i think.

00:03:26: And up to that point?

00:03:28: I was running a pharmacy chin and I am curious about digital.

00:03:36: And you know, the kind of people I work with is like pharmacists and businesspeople.

00:03:42: But...I start to curious about because at that time big company Like Lazada come to Vietnam Grabbing Uber.

00:03:51: At That Time So I was like I'm Curious About Because i see they're very different Kind Of People working.

00:03:58: so thats where we met In a group of digital nomads.

00:04:02: They Come To Vietnam.

00:04:04: Yeah,

00:04:04: so two digital nomads and to entrepreneurial minds meet in Saigon And then you said okay.

00:04:10: Let's let's do something together.

00:04:12: a chain of pharmacies isn't enough.

00:04:15: No no she also has FNB chain.

00:04:18: So she was very busy with more than one company.

00:04:22: No, for the first few years that we knew each other.

00:04:25: We didn't actually start a business together were working kind of on our own thing.

00:04:29: So I continued working in tech moving a little bit more from marketing to coding and At some point after a couple of years so swan had an original idea For Phonos Because she was busy running her businesses And She wanted To Read More Business Books.

00:04:49: but as

00:04:50: A Busy Person

00:04:51: You know, she was looking for audiobooks and then... She tried to find something in Vietnamese.

00:04:57: Right?

00:04:57: Because even though she's fluent in English it is not the same as like your native language.

00:05:02: so you are just looking at good business books In audio book format.

00:05:05: there were nothing really good on market.

00:05:08: And that where?

00:05:09: when she came with me idea I told her no way!

00:05:13: You already running two businesses if don't need a third one.

00:05:19: Yeah but When I was younger, I always like catch an idea and want to right away open a business.

00:05:29: And solving your problem you know?

00:05:31: You have the same illness.

00:05:32: Yeah that's my strain also My weakness because um...you don't focus At that point from being user of Audible.

00:05:44: i'm curious about The market in Vietnam why it doesn't have yet.

00:05:51: So, I'm just sticking to it and then see an opportunity.

00:05:57: And also...I have a competitive advantage in building that kind of business.

00:06:02: so thats why i start reaching out to Oscar.

00:06:06: because..i cannot do a tech project if i don't have a tech partner.

00:06:12: Okay cool but did you get this right?

00:06:14: Do You still have these other two companies as well ?

00:06:16: I still have the other company.

00:06:18: How do you do that?

00:06:19: run three companies all at once?

00:06:20: No, no actually i saw one another.

00:06:23: One is like my brother in charge of it now and fully focus on four nodes from day one.

00:06:30: Okay So as usual an entrepreneur finds a problem.

00:06:34: There's no solution yet.

00:06:35: so you build one yourself And you were the tech guy and you are the product kind off.

00:06:39: okay roughly

00:06:41: yeah,

00:06:42: how did work out?

00:06:44: well Essentially, I started looking into the market.

00:06:51: Trying to analyze is it a good idea?

00:06:55: Is there potential here just because something doesn't exist?

00:06:59: but you also have to ask yourself why does not that exists?

00:07:02: There are many times they're very good reasons for why it doesn t exist.

00:07:06: So we looked in and saw well And then we saw, besides audiobooks actually the whole audio market itself in Vietnam felt very underdeveloped.

00:07:24: So one was looking for audiobooks.

00:07:25: I myself as a big audio listener back then already you know ten years ago listening to tons of podcasts guided meditations, audiobooks kind of thing and i noticed that when i listened more than i watched videos which is interesting because it wasn't like price thing, it wasn't something.

00:07:44: It was just a lifestyle thing because audio the things that makes is special and I assume you know many people listening to this will recognize this as You can do while doing something else which Is not true for example with video right so you Can be in the gym?

00:08:00: In your Uber or taxi whatever it is And listen To audio and consume interesting content While you're Doing other stuff.

00:08:07: So all This time That Was previously Not Used Is Unlocked Through Audio.

00:08:12: So we saw that.

00:08:12: okay, so there is potential here.

00:08:15: audio.

00:08:15: Is here to stay it's not gonna go away because that's not going to change?

00:08:19: um...so then I remember i told swan That There is a problem with audio.

00:08:24: however which is when we looked at the international market We also tried to analyze.

00:08:30: You know who are the companies that are successful and in audio they're surprisingly Not that many across the world.

00:08:38: like you have the audiobook companies.

00:08:41: Then some big audio companies that are maybe on In music, you know.

00:08:48: You have the Spotify's But not many.

00:08:51: and even in podcasting you look at podcast thing like it seems Like almost a podcasters themselves make more money than the podcasting companies right with Joe Rogan With one hundred million kind of deal.

00:09:02: More then many almost every podcasting company except if you count Spotify.

00:09:07: So the problem with audio that I saw was the lack of barriers to entry, right?

00:09:14: If you do a meditation app...I can open Do A Meditation App tomorrow.

00:09:19: That is very similar and i Can sell it for half price And we have a problem.

00:09:25: so When I told Swan like okay if We do something in this space I will only do It or we should Only do it if we can get exclusive rights in the audiobooks area.

00:09:40: Because then, you have something defensible and build around it.

00:09:44: If I record books that work especially in a country like Vietnam next day there will be five competitors who do exactly same thing to compete on price.

00:09:56: It's going to raise to bottom.

00:09:58: none of us make any money And industry die

00:10:03: Makes sense.

00:10:04: What's the situation there when it comes to media rights?

00:10:06: I mean, usually you have an author of a book and then the person who produces that as in audio book.

00:10:12: And do other guys owning their rights for them?

00:10:14: did they get this right

00:10:15: correct?

00:10:15: so It works.

00:10:18: Essentially You Have To Get The Rights To Do That To Distribute The Audio Version Of The Book Right.

00:10:26: So We Work With Publishers.

00:10:27: we work with Authors.

00:10:28: It Depends A Little Bit On The Booktile And So on.

00:10:31: We Go Through Both through Local Publishes or international publishers, sometimes directly to the authors.

00:10:38: To get their rights and we have the right for Vietnamese version that can produce and distribute.

00:10:46: We produced ourselves!

00:10:49: And was it you really pretty much focused on Vietnam from your very first day?

00:10:54: Or did you have in mind going also Thailand maybe... ...or India or whatever region comes into our minds?

00:11:01: Vietnam like..we were very focussed on Vietnam Because we had at least some advantage here, you know with swans experience running businesses.

00:11:11: Here me living here Having a little bit of our network here.

00:11:14: We saw that this is a market?

00:11:16: We actually have some Advantage in right.

00:11:19: we don't have any in Thailand or India and Publishing also because this falls into publishing Is very region-based Right because the rights for each language and or each area are negotiated completely separately.

00:11:36: so all the Relationships not all but the majority of the relationships we have.

00:11:41: For example, for Vietnam our not gonna transfer to Thailand Sure Maybe with some international publishers But it wouldn't be that simple of like oh We can come in and you know get all the rides for everything in Thailand.

00:11:53: It would Be almost Like starting over So?

00:11:58: We thought about we looked into it.

00:12:00: Yet now we saw the bigger opportunity.

00:12:02: and what are they like?

00:12:03: How long do these deals last?

00:12:05: so someone allows you to own the rights on The audiobook version of his book

00:12:10: or her book.

00:12:11: And for how long does he do it, or she is like five year contracts ten-year contract lifetime.

00:12:16: How would that look like?

00:12:17: usually five years two seven years But um You can easily renew.

00:12:21: hmmm this isn't like music.

00:12:23: I can remember there was this big Taylor Swift thing where you could.

00:12:28: It's really hard when it comes to rights management and music, right?

00:12:30: Because there were the recordings.

00:12:32: She owned the recordings but not the media.

00:12:35: writes of a song that... The authorships or other way around.

00:12:40: so gets slightly confusing when it come to audio.

00:12:42: sometimes Is this rather difficult.

00:12:44: space is pretty easy

00:12:47: In in that area.

00:12:48: I would say its simpler like either publisher or author directly in most case that you just deal with and it's not THAT complicated in that part.

00:13:01: I wouldn't say its simple, right?

00:13:03: It still... there is a lot to it especially like local publishing international publishing.

00:13:09: There are alot of details there but In that specific area Its not.. Like theres ten different owners Of stuff That You have To Deal With.

00:13:18: The nice part about this Is you produce it once And you have digital inventory.

00:13:22: thats basically Timeless And you could use it all across Vietnam and its relevant for each of the guys listening to it, right?

00:13:29: So there's two things about that.

00:13:33: The first one is so.

00:13:34: we recognize that as well which is why from the beginning We invested heavily in our quality much more than anyone else In Vietnam was willing To spend.

00:13:46: so we really You know spent much More per recording per audiobook production because we recognized That This one good recording you can sell for the next ten, fifteen years.

00:13:58: Right?

00:13:58: Or however long.

00:14:01: So yeah even though we might spend more than our competitors You know like it's.

00:14:05: actually if you think about it on The duration of the whole thing It's actually not that much more expensive.

00:14:14: But then the second part is That I forgot my second point.

00:14:24: Yeah, but timelessness is I would say key.

00:14:26: I guess What was my second point?

00:14:33: But now with like Vietnam we have a different region.

00:14:38: Hard of it know so light different people they want to listen to or different.

00:14:44: Mama Tom right there

00:14:46: It wasn't about to ask you whether the Vietnam has one central language And it's the same everywhere.

00:14:51: Or does it make a difference?

00:14:52: where do you sell?

00:14:53: in the north on this south?

00:14:54: So doesn't make any difference

00:14:56: It does, it does.

00:14:57: So at the beginning was you know... The problem that we need to solve right?

00:15:03: But then uh Right now I think We just go with flow With market because i based on a television in Vietnam.

00:15:12: so usually In the salvin like they more You Know under TV They are more about entertainment like, widely by the people in Vietnam that you know.

00:15:25: any books related to religion or literature is written by Southern voice.

00:15:31: it's mostly accepted.

00:15:33: So I choose what is mostly accepted in Vietnam and usually in the North they will be more... Economy news and stuff.

00:15:45: So all of that series like business will be read by the male voice from then on.

00:15:51: Okay, that's interesting.

00:15:52: Yeah How long did it take to find out or?

00:15:54: Did you know that right from the beginning?

00:15:56: now we didn't.

00:15:57: well We were even considering at some point recording in two Like with two versions of each book.

00:16:04: Right so but we had an experienced audio team That swan kind of put together.

00:16:10: Well, not from the audiobook side because the audio box I didn't exist in Vietnam.

00:16:14: so we had to get people From The dubbing like movie dubbing industry or the music industry right that were in their audio production business and But through them kind of they figured it out over time And we also experimented.

00:16:30: you know It's a startup.

00:16:31: Like you can A B test You can try doing a book like this like there is.

00:16:35: like our very simple thing We did was In the product I separated the rating of the book content and The audio voice or the audio production.

00:16:47: Because so that our users could rate those two separately because when you get a four-star rating for a book You would have to read the details.

00:16:56: Oh, like hey was it?

00:16:57: Because he didn't like the person their accent Or was it because you didn't liked what the author wrote?

00:17:02: So this way we had a bit of an you know stronger signal which was Which part exactly are you?

00:17:09: That's interesting.

00:17:09: how your not liking.

00:17:10: And give me an idea, How much does it cost to take a book and turn into audio book?

00:17:20: Just the recording?

00:17:21: yeah right just the recording part.

00:17:23: It also depends too like because there are books we choose two voices or one voice.

00:17:32: if its literature will have with a fiction book, we will have more of what's it called?

00:17:43: A sell audio like music after that.

00:17:47: So the cost would be higher for different categories but this range from around one thousand dollars to three thousand dollars.

00:17:57: Wow really because I was expecting... workforce is quite cheap in Vietnam But it's your area specialized.

00:18:05: because yeah,

00:18:06: okay.

00:18:06: So if you want to go for cheap That's what they did before but that's why people will not pay for It.

00:18:14: so we want to create a product where people willing to pay for and by the way We charge like book like really like audible, which never happened before in Vietnam.

00:18:25: So to do that we have to deliver very good high quality.

00:18:30: where you go through a different process it's not just this is how they did perform.

00:18:38: You find someone.

00:18:39: she avoids talent and he or she can record by herself himself at home And when the finish The fire and you can just upload it.

00:18:51: So we don't do that We find them first also hike, you know like high quality experience boys talent.

00:19:00: That's so table to the book not who's cheapest Right?

00:19:04: So usually that causes double or triple And they don't bring anything home.

00:19:11: We asked him to go into our studio.

00:19:14: So we have engineered a just focusing on reading And we have our team there, not just one person.

00:19:22: Because when they tie it after you keep reading for an hour You're very easy to make mistakes.

00:19:28: and It's not just a mistake is the energy.

00:19:32: When people listen to them They can feel their energy like your weaker or something.

00:19:38: So that's different process.

00:19:41: And also after that, the post-production and QC.

00:19:46: So it's really add up to cost.

00:19:48: but as long we can sell this doesn't matter.

00:19:54: It totally makes sense.

00:19:55: I mean obviously my content is rather short an hour maybe two But a total difference if its like forty hours of reading totally make sense.

00:20:04: Yeah yeah there are very

00:20:06: long books.

00:20:07: We learned when trying record with authors.

00:20:11: So when we work with some Vietnamese authors or Vietnamese books, it's fun to kind of get the author in the studio and maybe read a bit.

00:20:19: But for many of them like we realized that is not great fit because even if their voice is good you know its different.

00:20:29: reading one chapter versus reading ten hours more keeping that same consistency, keeping that energy.

00:20:39: Keeping the same flow everything throughout multiple days of work.

00:20:44: it's actually really challenging

00:20:45: must be insanely complex in a way because I was just thinking about speed i thought if i would you know write or even wrote a book and If i would speak into the microphone read out i guess fifty percent Of people say wow!

00:20:58: That guy is talking way too fast.

00:21:00: could he be slower?

00:21:04: pretty special in a way also.

00:21:06: And imagine, okay you do our four-hour recording session.

00:21:09: like your speed is the first fifteen minutes and your speed at last fifteen minutes there's no way it gonna be consistent right unless you're pro.

00:21:17: yeah

00:21:18: so does this mean that these people need to do it multiple times?

00:21:22: You read out chapters twice or three times.

00:21:25: Yeah some of them.

00:21:28: It really takes time for them.

00:21:31: Okay, now it makes sense Matt.

00:21:32: We will let them read through the whole chapter and when they... So like get them used to it And well in one day get in a via and feel it and we say okay Let's reading yet

00:21:45: Like like piano players when I have these metronomes right?

00:21:48: Right!

00:21:50: Ok give me an idea.

00:21:51: how much does that product cost?

00:21:53: you said its per item not the flat rate right.

00:21:57: so It says it's our subscription business.

00:21:59: oh ok alright

00:22:00: and if your familiar Or your listeners with the audibles model, which is a subscription but you get one credit per month Mm-hmm.

00:22:07: So and you can exchange that credit for any audiobook.

00:22:11: And then some books.

00:22:12: lately we launched at last year.

00:22:15: Is there's some books that are included in your subscription?

00:22:18: But most of the books especially the best selling books You have to use your credit To get access to them.

00:22:24: Okay, makes sense.

00:22:25: And as far I understood it's business books but also other stuff that is rather for entertainment or fantasy science fiction.

00:22:31: Are we like a whole library?

00:22:34: We work with all the publishers Fiction non-fiction Like All The Biggest Ones in Vietnam.

00:22:39: and before i ask you about video an AI and Other Business Models Let's Be Honest.

00:22:44: You start With An Idea.

00:22:45: It's Like Jumping Off Cliff and Building The Parachute While You're Falling Down.

00:22:48: I guess How did it come about?

00:22:50: What was it like?

00:22:52: having this idea and theory, then turning into characters.

00:22:56: Well I think we were really looking to do just a step at the time.

00:23:01: so both Swan more than me but had experience in business Like i have some online kind of ventures before too.

00:23:11: So you know We weren't completely naive about that process the initial idea, trying to see if it's viable.

00:23:20: Then trying to say okay let us meet with publishers in Vietnam and let us see what we can negotiate right?

00:23:26: And then launching that app... Can we get anyone pay for this?

00:23:31: because that was a huge concern!

00:23:35: Basically everyone told back then of everyone in Vietnam told us hey It will not work Because Vietnamese people don't pay for content.

00:23:44: That is like feedback from them.

00:23:48: So, you know in our first month we launched with six books.

00:23:52: Our app had six books when it launch but I remember at the end of the month We have like ninety four dollars and revenue or something And swan even checked.

00:24:02: is that just people?

00:24:04: Or are they actual strangers?

00:24:05: It was real people who don't actually purchase.

00:24:09: That gave us a positive feedback to allow You To Keep Going.

00:24:17: And then it's like, okay.

00:24:18: We have ninety four Let us can we make a couple hundred?

00:24:20: Can we get right and that you grow month by month?

00:24:23: challenge my challenge one step at A time.

00:24:25: did Jeff pivotal moments like where You need to pivot the whole business model whether Theories That didn't work out?

00:24:33: oh There are.

00:24:33: there Are few times like that.

00:24:35: but Like you know I add To what Oscar said like another first Time the phone is not My First project right.

00:24:44: So I think I come in very experienced and I kind of learned my lesson before to prepare for most better.

00:24:54: And also with my partner, um...I feel like this time I will prepare better but which is true?

00:25:03: But it's have-to!

00:25:05: It really helps us make a better decision at the beginning faster than some part.

00:25:12: Out of my experience, in the last ten years it's gone after one year and four months.

00:25:21: I feel like everything changed very fast.

00:25:24: this is also digital and tech world.

00:25:29: i'm very new to this And a lot...and we started company during Kuwait when we were raising money The first time.

00:25:38: We never met any investor in person At that time, we don't even know if it should be way and wait until when.

00:25:46: So many things knew but I think... We learned a lot of new lessons with Flouse.

00:25:56: Yeah

00:25:57: For context our app launched in April twenty-twenty so It was very interesting timing.

00:26:05: yeah

00:26:06: What happened

00:26:07: after the ninety five four people bought at?

00:26:09: what did she do to make it scan?

00:26:14: To make it scale.

00:26:14: So I can share with you like one growth tactic that uh, i came up with.

00:26:22: That was really helpful and especially in the first one two years but even today It still benefits us.

00:26:28: so One thing i'd like to do when thinking about growth And marketing is Trying to think where does existing demand already exist?

00:26:40: not Where.

00:26:41: how Can i create new demand?

00:26:42: right because Tapping into existing demand is way, way easier than creating new demand.

00:26:48: So I was trying to figure out like okay if someone wanted to somehow listen some audiobooks in Vietnam what would they do?

00:26:57: Where will the go?

00:26:58: where did it hangout?

00:26:59: and i realized well actually YouTube.

00:27:03: so people were reading books themselves and uploading them to youtube which technically is illegal there.

00:27:10: not allowed too But some of these videos would get like a million views if it was in popular book.

00:27:17: So I realized, well okay we can work with the publishers and have rights to this books.

00:27:23: so that's search traffic already exists right?

00:27:31: We took first chapter on every book Uploaded our own video to YouTube of like the professional production everything and then you know with a big link Like hey, if you want to listen to the rest of the book go download our

00:27:43: app.

00:27:44: So kind of an appetizer on the real thing

00:27:47: exactly.

00:27:47: And all that existing search traffic.

00:27:49: If you go and you know rich dad poor Dad audio book.

00:27:52: If you searched that and you find our video On youtube right it now has I think I don't know couple million views is like You will find the first chapter with our audio production and without a link to download or app.

00:28:06: That's smart!

00:28:07: So now we have, I think we have like seven hundred fifty thousand subscribers... We have couple million views per month organic.

00:28:14: We even had money from YouTube?

00:28:16: Yes it was about to ask you advertising

00:28:21: money.

00:28:22: And

00:28:23: you're allowed to do that from a rights perspective.

00:28:25: or Do you need to pay this separately?

00:28:27: To the publishers as well if you are doing some kind of appetizing on YouTube.

00:28:30: So we check with the publishers and then also It depends how much you share off-the-book, right so As long is it's under a certain percentage its okay Right You can't put half the book online like no one will be ok without

00:28:43: We.

00:28:44: not OK With That too.

00:28:46: Yeah

00:28:47: But you have aligned interests.

00:28:48: I learned Both of you, the publisher and yourself want them to buy their book.

00:28:52: And we need to advertise it so that makes sense.

00:28:55: How does this in general work?

00:28:57: Do you guys like by these rights or is there some kind of performance aspect in visit That whenever you sell an audio book that the publisher gets paid as well?

00:29:06: So its both a license fee and they kickback?

00:29:12: No no It's essentially...it's our revenue share model right.

00:29:18: There might be an advance, right?

00:29:20: But then it gets deducted from the revenue share.

00:29:23: Interesting.

00:29:24: I mean you mentioned competition.

00:29:26: How is it possible to build up competition if this is some kind of winner takes at all?

00:29:30: because the winners are one who has owns the rights

00:29:34: Because we're not first won in a market

00:29:37: Right but

00:29:37: do?

00:29:37: we were The ones who realized that was our winner take-all Market and who acted kind of accordingly mm-hmm.

00:29:46: so When we first came into the market, there were one or two people trying to do something.

00:29:56: Not doing a great job but like try to do some thing and... But the key area that I saw was exclusivity right?

00:30:04: We saw that now luckily had an advantage which is the publishers in Vietnam.

00:30:10: they have gone through experiments on e-book markets before And the e-book market in Vietnam at that point had been essentially destroyed by everyone being able to sell their ebooks, piracy everywhere.

00:30:26: No one making any money from it right?

00:30:28: So It was a race to the bottom and the publishers just stopped doing E books basically because they were like we get no money From it and if anything it hurts our physical sales.

00:30:38: so there's literally no point In us doing So.

00:30:41: when we came to the publishers, it was one of things that helped us convince them to give us exclusive rights.

00:30:47: Because look you see what happened with ebooks?

00:30:49: The same thing will happen in audiobooks.

00:30:52: if you don't allow us have exclusive right now We'll have aligned interests.

00:30:57: It's not my interest try and overcharge.

00:30:59: I'm here trying to scam customers or charge a hundred dollars per audio book.

00:31:08: That's not the way.

00:31:09: But I have to protect, right?

00:31:12: If i sell something for three dollars... if a competitor comes in and tries to sell it for one dollar ...I have to match that!

00:31:20: And then none of us are making money !

00:31:22: The whole industry dies because why would you build a studio ?

00:31:26: Why would you invest in buying books from overseas getting the authors ,getting the publishers .

00:31:32: All of this needs investment but we're all just making no money.

00:31:37: the industry is dead.

00:31:39: We saw that and we came in kind of getting that exclusive right, making sure our interests are aligned with the publishers—that was very important to us too —we could have signed some deals that were maybe fixed price where there's going be a winner-and-loser depending on if you sell more or less but we didn't want it.

00:32:05: That's worked out.

00:32:06: Is piracy a problem in your area?

00:32:09: Yeah, yeah piracy is big in Vietnam Right and we thought about it but In the end I saw that You know i always come back to like.

00:32:19: vietnam is not that different from The rest of the world so it will follow similar directions.

00:32:24: you Know what whether It was in europe Like i remember you know early uh like i would i used To torrent things And download illegally.

00:32:34: But The moment it became more convenient to use Spotify or use Netflix, I'm not going to spend the time trying to figure out the torrenting sites.

00:32:48: It's just too much of a bother.

00:32:50: and i saw...I did some research into China and China was on the same path right?

00:32:54: China used to have like no one paying for content but now it's one of the countries that spending most digitally through their apps online.

00:33:03: so To me, it was like no the same thing is going to happen in Vietnam.

00:33:08: Right?

00:33:08: So our job will be you know.

00:33:11: that's why You can't be too expensive because then It's worth it to pirate and You have to make it as easy a smooth As good as possible.

00:33:20: right if your.

00:33:21: Because you Know piracy can also compete on some things.

00:33:24: they can't compete On The user experience.

00:33:26: They Can't Make it That the app Is Good Like.

00:33:29: They Can Invest All the Effort and money that we put into developing like a great app, an a great experience offline listening the whole review ecosystem We have right from up from real users.

00:33:41: The gamification all the things we have.

00:33:43: they can't invest in that.

00:33:45: Right but we can.

00:33:46: so we have some advantages And some disadvantages

00:33:49: especially nowadays when they do piracy They will have to sell online too.

00:33:55: back then you know they're selling now the USB in a shop where I cannot control it.

00:34:02: But now if they're both on YouTube or any channel, we can really work with them to track that out.

00:34:08: so It's also easier than before.

00:34:10: Hmm...

00:34:11: That's interesting.

00:34:12: So its kind of strict path you need follow which is oriented on convenience price usability totally makes sense.

00:34:19: and um i was wondering what the needs your customers have.

00:34:25: I mean, I learned and made the same experience with podcasting because whenever i was selling advertising said hey listen guys you know.

00:34:32: The only moment You can reach someone who's physically active but mentally available is via audio Because you can't watch your video while driving a car or being on the treadmill in the sports studio.

00:34:44: So what?

00:34:44: In my case it's learning While you're physically active.

00:34:47: Is this also What Your audience is about your customers Or is there more to it?

00:34:51: because I mean obviously Also have this fantasy and sense fiction stuff as entertainment.

00:34:55: What do these people look like?

00:34:57: what's the target audience and what to they wish for, what is their problem there?

00:34:59: solving

00:35:01: well The two most active times in a day when people use our product are morning an evening.

00:35:11: So yes on the way to work but not just right also To fall asleep or before bed.

00:35:17: Or while making breakfast.

00:35:18: so these are quite big Use user time.

00:35:23: And For the user type, what we see is really our biggest user group.

00:35:30: It's quite diverse.

00:35:31: but the biggest user groups are young professionals.

00:35:33: so you can really see that like a twenty five to thirty-five year old user group both male and female they use their product then they really liked it.

00:35:44: So of course we have older as well.

00:35:47: We also have younger college students.

00:35:50: But if I had to pick one using our product the most.

00:35:56: And I was asking because of the fact that obviously there's adjacent businesses you guys could stick to, for instance in Germany we have a company which is called Blinkist.

00:36:05: You probably know it.

00:36:07: what they do is They offer short versions of books To read.

00:36:11: so you could either say okay listen take the audio book or read five pages and get The most relevant insights or you could do podcasting, or you can stick to video.

00:36:22: You know there's quite a few stuff that you could add up into audiobooks.

00:36:26: Does this make sense for your guys?

00:36:27: Or is it the case of focus-pocus-keep-the-focus?

00:36:30: No so the funny thing here are all the ones we mentioned.

00:36:34: So over time we expanded right and added book summaries.

00:36:39: We have that like Blinkist style audio text Sleep stories, correct?

00:36:45: Right for people to fall asleep.

00:36:46: We have guided meditations.

00:36:48: even we added ebooks at some point and Even you mentioned video.

00:36:57: That's a bit of a bigger.

00:36:58: so these were like the natural obvious ones.

00:37:02: And then I would say The most interesting part was what was gonna come after that?

00:37:06: because these are the obvious one right um...and Then We were really thinking about which direction we want to go further.

00:37:16: And our users, what are they looking for?

00:37:18: So I remember we did a survey or multiple surveys both kind of over the phone and online asking our users like What Are You Getting Out Of Our App Like?

00:37:30: Why Are Using It?

00:37:32: What's Really?

00:37:33: What Really Matters much more than we expected.

00:37:38: The number one answer by far was to learn.

00:37:43: All right, so our users really said I listen to it to learn.

00:37:46: and then we even asked like okay is that because we have So much non-fiction content?

00:37:52: Right how about?

00:37:53: would you like us add more fiction?

00:37:55: And some said yes but most said not really i just want a lot more stuff To learn.

00:38:00: so at that point We realized Like Okay That's the need that were filling.

00:38:03: It's like You know The world Is changing A Lot.

00:38:06: Vietnamese People Are Very Hungry.

00:38:08: You Know Its A Young Population thats very hungry to move up in the World.

00:38:13: They're ambitious, right?

00:38:14: they want new knowledge.

00:38:15: They want to keep improving the young professionals that want great careers.

00:38:20: So The next product we did was actually we realized like okay We don't have to be limited by audio and we launched something That is I think the closest comparison would be masterclass in the US

00:38:35: Mm-hmm.

00:38:36: so we realize look a lot of the great books that our users are reading or foreign authors.

00:38:44: And that's fine, but there are a lot of Vietnamese experts who would be quite interesting and people will love to hear from them.

00:38:51: so we launched kind of like a vietnamese masterclass where we invite really interesting people with our expert in their topics.

00:39:00: Of course you can just listen to it But also have video element too Where watch them share.

00:39:07: The way I saw this is like mentorship.

00:39:11: Imagine, you know maybe all three of us.

00:39:13: You know we have the benefit Of being able to meet really interesting people right with two?

00:39:18: learn for ask questions from But imagine your in a countryside in Vietnam Right?

00:39:24: You don't know a lot of people In business or in that kind of business or technology or psychology Or these kinds of experts.

00:39:31: you don't get a chance to talk them but this is an easy way you might Get access to hear them almost like one-on-one sharing.

00:39:39: So that's actually the next product we launched within their app.

00:39:44: Did you see a dip when this whole video game took up?

00:39:47: I mean tiktok was a big, big mover of this space.

00:39:51: then your these YouTube shorts.

00:39:52: Then you have Instagram reels.

00:39:54: so what happens is the attention span off people shrinks and at The same time videos everywhere.

00:39:59: i mean also Spotify started it Where I see basically a problem because It doesn't work together with the audio interests they have.

00:40:08: Myself as a podcaster for instance, it's problem.

00:40:10: For me whenever I upload the video of a podcast on Spotify It directly kills my advertising which means they do not earn any money.

00:40:17: so i might have more users or more engaged uses But I don't know anything.

00:40:22: So um did you see some kind of dip?

00:40:24: Or problem or turnover or change in the usage of your app when video took up?

00:40:30: no Not really.

00:40:32: I think its because we We narrow our.

00:40:35: so unlike Spotify Which is You know, obviously they're serving the global market and their kind of trying to do everything.

00:40:42: Our focus with a video is quite narrow right?

00:40:47: We're not trying to like video entertainment.

00:40:49: We're no competing with tiktok for Like your ten second funny videos stuff Right we are explicitly glow doing something where this person sitting there.

00:41:00: It's essentially an online course Right.

00:41:02: so it's little bit about different use case than you now yours just scrolling around.

00:41:07: I totally understand, but you're fighting for time.

00:41:09: For eyeballs as we tend to say or ears.

00:41:13: did You see any like that?

00:41:14: the amount of audiobooks being sold are being consumed.

00:41:17: shrink when video grew?

00:41:20: I mean video was always big.

00:41:21: yeah Let's not let's face it.

00:41:23: But in my space for instance and podcasts I can't say okay listen The amount of competition grew so there is much more guys doing podcast than this video.

00:41:32: So people would spend three hours on personal development a day, or as you said in the way to work and back from work home.

00:41:39: And then they either decide do I check out a TikTok video?

00:41:43: Or YouTube clip?

00:41:45: Or how-to-do videos versus listening to podcasts or

00:41:48: audiobooks?".

00:41:49: You know what I mean?

00:41:49: The amount of time spent on personal developement differs where I spend it.

00:41:56: Did you see that as well or is this differently than your case?

00:42:02: We didn't really say that!

00:42:04: Yeah,

00:42:05: because in you know my we have this saying and our company content is for free implementations from money.

00:42:11: Because what we realized with the upcoming of AI?

00:42:14: it's much easier for people to learn And they ask questions directly based on their case.

00:42:19: so I do not need To listen to Simon Sinek on okay how Do i found a company culture?

00:42:24: What does This mean?

00:42:25: start With why They just asked Their AI and It answers

00:42:28: them right.

00:42:29: but At A certain point There Comes The Moment In Time Where You say Okay I asked the AI everything, and it would love someone to help me do it or show your implement stuff.

00:42:39: This is where your masterclasses also come into play.

00:42:41: And this why we are really thinking quite a bit about how relevant content is.

00:42:47: So maybe you nailed it.

00:42:49: so i'm curious Do understand that problem right?

00:42:52: Yeah Absolutely!

00:42:58: One of problems were solving local expertise Right?

00:43:02: It's like, okay.

00:43:03: Simon Sinek says this about corporate culture.

00:43:06: Well if you take that and go to your average Vietnamese company And say oh thats how you do corporate culture You know they're gonna laugh at you.

00:43:14: No Thats not how Vietnam does corporate culture And you are going to fail.

00:43:18: So the other part I would say is...and i don't know How it will play out but interesting Is The nature of trust.

00:43:31: Who do you trust in an AI world, right?

00:43:33: Like okay your AI said You should do this with your corporate culture.

00:43:38: It's like well Okay, like Where where is all of your information coming from?

00:43:44: Is it really applicable here?

00:43:46: maybe may be not Right.

00:43:48: whereas if you ask the guy who you know You asked Lars whose running this company here in Vietnam was You know, hundreds of developers.

00:43:57: Great company?

00:43:59: Exactly.

00:43:59: and you ask him like hey how do you run a high performance team in Vietnam?

00:44:05: Well that's...you know it's applicable.

00:44:07: It is real!

00:44:08: That he actually tested it.

00:44:12: So there something about I think paradoxical where In the AI age Real human experience And sharing also becomes more important because your more sure you can trust.

00:44:25: Right, if Lars tells me that I know i can trust it.

00:44:27: If the AI tells me maybe... ...depends.

00:44:31: Yeah!

00:44:32: I'm also a strong believer in curation.

00:44:34: Like who curated this stuff?

00:44:36: Yes If Swan tells me hey Joel you should check out THIS, THAT and this content if you would like to understand Vietnamese culture.. ..I guess uh- I would believe her And be thankful for not going diving into all of that stuff.

00:44:49: What's your idea on content and the relevance of it?

00:44:53: You guys are in a very nice position because you have this exclusivity.

00:44:57: But as I said, AI is coming up.

00:44:59: also audio production could be an AI topic.

00:45:01: what do we have here on this?

00:45:04: Yeah first i think when AI come out even before that We're thinking like When we see like in podcast and on YouTube Like right now people can easily invite someone What?

00:45:44: I cannot find a similar content.

00:45:52: So that's why for podcast, we very focused on curated and not just the people but the topic We have to see.

00:46:01: like what kind of topics Not commonly shared?

00:46:06: or it is hard To have someone on YouTube share it And People will listen.

00:46:13: so we would choose that.

00:46:15: For pod courses

00:46:18: Would it be possible?

00:46:19: I mean, today is slightly too early.

00:46:22: But do you think that's possible?

00:46:23: to create your audiobooks with AI in let say two or three

00:46:26: years?".

00:46:29: We already recorded some audio books with AI right?

00:46:37: Yeah we launched the first ones just for context.

00:46:43: so Vietnamese text-to-speech and Vietnamese kind of AI a little bit behind like in English, obviously.

00:46:52: Right?

00:46:53: Same with German.

00:46:54: Yeah.

00:46:54: so you know In english the audio quality is phenomenal.

00:46:59: You look at eleven labs of the newest models.

00:47:03: They're phenomenal!

00:47:04: In Vietnamese There's good progress but they are not quite there yet.

00:47:10: We did build our own custom flows to do something that we think now is good enough for certain topics.

00:47:18: So pick the right book, like for example we wouldn't do fiction in using AI at least you know not for a while.

00:47:28: Non-fiction on certain topics it can actually match and be comparable.

00:47:35: I think the way we look at this stuff however is... We had to ask ourselves Is going to destroy our business?

00:47:45: A big

00:47:46: problem?".

00:47:47: And so on.

00:47:49: What is our business, really?

00:47:52: Is the audio production what makes us

00:47:54: special?".

00:47:55: But we realized actually it's not that big of a deal in this specific case.

00:48:02: At least not on the production side.

00:48:03: because okay... We can literally just switch to AI production and still do that.

00:48:09: The key part is like user experience right?

00:48:12: Like users know I go there I have all this content, I have this great app.

00:48:19: Now are they recorded in that way?

00:48:20: That's one thing.

00:48:23: but the user experience is really on our end and AI it will come and go.

00:48:31: But what we always discuss with AI The interesting use cases are not.

00:48:40: What can you replace?

00:48:42: If the question that's interesting is, what can you do now?

00:48:46: That you could never do before.

00:48:49: And when we start looking at our product for example... ...when we launched our AI books I wanted us to have something.. ..that we couldn't do before.

00:48:59: Otherwise it was just a worse experience.

00:49:02: You're giving me this same product.

00:49:04: Okay great!

00:49:05: It's cheaper.

00:49:06: but unless your gonna charge less why care about using AI?

00:49:10: For me, there's nothing.

00:49:11: So what we did was every AI book is launched with two voices.

00:49:17: so you have for example a male and female voice.

00:49:20: now We can be like hey this isn't an AI Book but unlike before where it would cost us double to do that because of the efficiency Of AI It still costs as though.

00:49:31: well But its much less.

00:49:32: so we can launch The same book in multiple voices And it upto You To pick one you Like And that's only possible because we do it in AI.

00:49:40: So I think, a great framework for our product people or businesspeople when trying to use AI and their businesses especially consumer facing is like give them something they couldn't before?

00:49:54: They might be more open to you using it.

00:49:57: What your view on discovery by the way?

00:49:59: Because i was just asking myself hey he right It also some kind of lock-in effect if my own podcast app would then share knowledge.

00:50:08: And then I thought, hm.

00:50:09: The tricky part is the bigger the inventory becomes... ...the harder it is to find relevant content.

00:50:16: or maybe there's different relevant content.

00:50:18: and the question is how do i deliver constantly?

00:50:21: So How Do You Guys Do That?

00:50:22: To Help People Find The Stuff They Interested In?

00:50:26: Well all that first of all the typical stuff you know using AI recommendation engines and kind of dividing people into cohorts.

00:50:37: If your first book is this, then well you get certain recommendations and directions.

00:50:43: Because a fifty-year old woman who uses the app to download like Buddhist text in that twenty five year old guy who downloads Rich Dad Poor Dad they shouldn't have got same app experience or content recommendation obviously.

00:51:01: but I think We also realized that people really, really care and trust real user reviews.

00:51:13: And it's very important to them.

00:51:15: so its like.

00:51:15: okay the AI says this book might be good for me.

00:51:19: but if you tell me hey we have other users.

00:51:22: You bought Rich Dad Poor Dad.

00:51:25: The number one book of young men who purchased a rich dad poor dad they also liked is Atomic Habits.

00:51:34: Right, so real.

00:51:36: now as long is it's real and people think that its real And they can trust it you know?

00:51:41: And then reading the user reviews.

00:51:43: The real user review not what an AI says Why would be good.

00:51:47: but seeing some other guy right like yeah this really helped me.

00:51:50: or I Think there's book is really great on finance.

00:51:53: You know dad actually seems to be the most important thing to focus on because It creates the most trust.

00:52:00: i think we're also cynical at this point when it comes to like algorithms and random recommendations that as long as you show people This is real from another person.

00:52:11: They actually start to Trust it.

00:52:15: where do you set the boundaries by the way?

00:52:16: I mean, what are your study?

00:52:17: whether you end because he said You do experiment with video of the masterclasses?

00:52:21: you have the audiobooks.

00:52:22: Do you have two the blinks or whatever you call them in a short versions?

00:52:25: Is it for instance also possible that I, as a German podcast that come to you guys and say listen.

00:52:30: I interviewed Simon Sinek here in English.

00:52:32: how about you guys translate us into Vietnamese sell it?

00:52:35: And we do a roughshare.

00:52:36: this also.

00:52:37: How are your working?

00:52:38: or is there some kind of boundary sake?

00:52:39: hey our content should have this and That's the minimal.

00:52:45: i think We like To Think Of It From The User Perspective Right.

00:52:51: so This Is Why For Example We Launched Video and Didn't Just Stick to Audio.

00:52:55: As We Didn'T Ask Ourself We didn't.

00:52:58: We decided not to put ourselves in a random category of like, oh we're an audio app.

00:53:02: We decided...

00:53:03: For audiobooks

00:53:05: or audibles.

00:53:07: Right?

00:53:08: We want to be surrounded and focus on the person when they wanna grow.

00:53:14: what would help them grow?

00:53:16: So we have this user which is for young professionals who are our biggest users group And they want to learn.

00:53:25: They usually can teach while busy But that's really, so the question is if you come to us with ad we will ask ourselves.

00:53:33: Will our users want this?

00:53:36: Will it help them or Is It useful for Them?

00:53:39: then We're going To be open to it.

00:53:41: That's Really tricky to build a user journey on This right because its totally different than The one guy might love to sit in the train and read the shorts of your books.

00:53:50: the other One loves hearing Your audiobooks.

00:53:53: maybe some You know mix it.

00:53:56: Is there a magic trick to doing the user journey out of this?

00:54:01: No, I think essentially... By now we're not really adding more content types.

00:54:09: We've done enough and experimented.

00:54:11: some of them get a ton of traffic but only got a little bit.

00:54:18: But yeah that's very good point.

00:54:19: it is much harder do that.

00:54:25: Maybe its cultural thing.

00:54:26: I do feel that Asian audiences seem a little bit more open to apps doing more things than just one.

00:54:37: Whereas in the West, we have kind of like our really... One focus is this app should only do this one thing and i don't want it touch anything else.

00:54:49: Yeah That's true Like these WeChat stuff right?

00:54:53: In China crazy for European minds.

00:54:57: Okay, I

00:54:57: see.".

00:54:58: And what about the real world?

00:55:00: Because as you say right now thinking of a guy sitting in no where land and Vietnam trying to grow his interest on stuff he said hey we deliver information knowledge to him.

00:55:11: but maybe that guy also comes to point where says oh i would

00:55:14: love

00:55:15: to exchange with others who are like me myself.

00:55:19: so is this all part?

00:55:20: or think an events when it makes sense goes too far.

00:55:29: I mean, we've thrown events.

00:55:31: We have done offline events not in the countryside in Saigon where we had some workshops and invited our paid users to come for free to attend like workshops with famous speakers.

00:55:47: so it fits from theme.

00:55:51: however We do have to limit our focus.

00:55:56: And that's a whole new type of business, like running events and running offline

00:56:01: stuff."

00:56:23: to the world, to Vietnam.

00:56:24: If I do this or if i don't that is anyone damage anything.

00:56:29: so with event it really get us distracted and its just really get out of our core strength by where we want use online as a solution for things.

00:56:43: whatever works already out there offline.

00:56:46: fine thats good Let it be, but we only focus to solve things that offline cannot solve.

00:56:52: And

00:56:53: then what can work is like... We also work with people who do it right?

00:56:57: So we partner with podcasters, authors, publishers when they do something interesting.

00:57:06: you know we might sponsor or participate in events.

00:57:09: I mean maybe community as a better word instead of offline event.

00:57:13: because What i see the resource your audience

00:57:16: yes

00:57:17: I mean, if you have cores as you said and there's the bunch of people who are twenty five willing to grow interested in business.

00:57:23: And then this is sixty years old whose interest it in yoga or meditation whatsoever?

00:57:28: It's worth for them to exchange with others

00:57:31: right?

00:57:32: do You have any kind of feature on your app that allows two exchanges other users Or is a just one?

00:57:37: too many communication

00:57:39: Right now its one-to-many.

00:57:41: Its mainly reviews and stuff To now in Vietnam, you know.

00:57:48: there's also details regarding The legal aspect of having like social features and a social network In an app.

00:57:59: it is possible But you fall into a different legal category And there's like a bunch of stuff.

00:58:03: You have to do so.

00:58:05: It's not that easy over jump up like.

00:58:08: I just feel like doing it Like you have to be very.

00:58:13: But because when we really like conceded that, look into it.

00:58:18: Should we do this?

00:58:19: We will not.

00:58:20: you know

00:58:21: I'm in the middle of this process as well so i can totally relate.

00:58:25: yeah man As I said knowledge gets easier to acquire.

00:58:30: You need specialized knowledge or Knowledge that's curated Or you need a person who tells you which knowledge is relevant Which is creation at end again And then it's about implementation and the presentation is pretty much about social contact.

00:58:45: Social content next to community,

00:58:47: so I completely agree.

00:58:48: i think There are many like.

00:58:51: I subscribe to some sub-stacks.

00:58:54: there're some discords there.

00:58:58: Yeah different subscriptions So they all focused on a specific topic or around a specific creator, right?

00:59:11: Where I feel like this guy is really good on this.

00:59:15: So the other people in that community might share interesting stuff and would join.

00:59:18: so it's definitely real.

00:59:21: And its happening alot.

00:59:23: We haven't been talking about number crunching yet.

00:59:26: First of all how did you finance all that?

00:59:28: Do you have investors right from the start?

00:59:31: Was it her pharmacy chain that financed It?

00:59:33: how did she come about?

00:59:34: because quite a few people in there are listening Right now and viewing your guys.

00:59:38: Maybe also would love to start up business.

00:59:39: How do two guys do with

00:59:40: them In the beginning savings And us doing all the work, right?

00:59:46: so we didn't get investors early on Only like after we launched.

00:59:51: eventually We started raising.

00:59:55: Yeah, by now we've I mean overall.

00:59:57: We've raised like a series A around but we raised bit-by-bit the whole journey through right?

01:00:03: So we started with some pre seed investors and some seed round And we had angel investors here in there and then eventually like a prea round.

01:00:11: so it was really

01:00:13: At my set at the beginning on twenty nineteen.

01:00:16: It was not yet covid and Ed was easier back than to raise money That before we would collapse or something is to it

01:00:26: was around that time.

01:00:28: It's easier, but like at the point personally for me.

01:00:31: I'm the one who do like not digital before all right.

01:00:35: so i don't understand a whole thing about Evaluation and burning money from me.

01:00:44: You know what?

01:00:44: I do pharmacy.

01:00:45: I do F&B selling sandwich with me saying which chain.

01:00:50: So I see people, you know the way we're making money is on the street.

01:00:56: People like spend money to buy ingredients sale.

01:01:01: at the end of a day they have money and put in their pocket profit.

01:01:05: i don't understand when one company keep burning money and evaluation keeps higher.

01:01:12: there's something off about that for me to understand At this point.

01:01:17: so...we had lot discussion.

01:01:21: I don't think we personally fit in that kind of model, like burning and keep raising.

01:01:30: So what do you want to do is?

01:01:31: We wanna solve a problem!

01:01:32: We wanna create value... ...we're gonna sell it and making profit.

01:01:36: Symbols for me are business.

01:01:38: The other things not my business but not my definition.

01:01:45: And i dont have those kinds of strength to keep raising money all the time and focusing on product.

01:01:50: So yeah, so from day one we try to eliminate cost as much as possible and also We don't want to spend time To solve the problem.

01:02:02: that is not a real problem.

01:02:05: I believe in my personal experience i feel like the more people you have The more Problem about People You Have To Solve And You Stay Away From The Main Problem Of The Product.

01:02:19: That's why we're trying to keep the team small, like anything you can do at a beginning.

01:02:26: We'll do it ourselves and It also save us money.

01:02:31: Where we don't have to raise a lot?

01:02:33: You can use our savings is save as time to deal with people problem.

01:02:39: So yet that's all my set With money raising And also when we come to race will so long go for a race of raising money, so we want to make money at the beginning.

01:02:53: We have six books in our library but we charge each book.

01:02:57: You wanna see that if people willing pay for a product and... Of course, in tech world you need money—we have to raise money… And how much do we need?

01:03:11: We're very careful about choosing the partner, by choosing who will be in a path with us because that's also time.

01:03:27: That is also cost.

01:03:28: I cannot just take anyone money Because yeah it can solve my problem right now With Money But It Caused Me A Lot Of Problem In The Future.

01:03:38: Where To Cost Me Time.

01:03:40: So...With My Experience.

01:03:41: In The End Its Not Really Making me Faster In Overall.

01:03:46: So it felt counterintuitive for you to raise money, so the pile gets bigger while the costs also blow up.

01:03:53: And I guess by now this is really helpful because pre-COVID or maybe even in The Myth investors were pretty much focusing on growth and they're focussing on profitability right?

01:04:04: Exactly!

01:04:05: Yeah we went through that journey where In first part of that i would meet with investors who would straight up tell me like, yeah we don't care about what your revenue is.

01:04:19: Who cares?

01:04:20: How many users do you have?

01:04:21: how fast are you going?

01:04:23: and we were... Swan and I were very proud of our revenue even though it wasn't maybe the biggest but there was really hard.

01:04:32: other people were failing at making any money and we're making okay money.

01:04:36: so this actually Like, we're quite proud of us making this money and actually getting our users in Vietnam to pay.

01:04:43: That's the hardest thing about this business is like... In Vietnam it's not that hard to get a bunch of users for free You know?

01:04:51: There are a lot people here.

01:04:52: It's one hundred million people.

01:04:54: We can find some users if you give them stuff for free but Getting them to pay-that's the HARDEST part Of This Business And then at SOME point Well, now all the VCs are like oh you shouldn't be making money.

01:05:09: Oh!

01:05:10: You should think about profit and say well yeah... The thing that we've been doing all along.

01:05:17: so it turned out well for us.

01:05:21: I would say however.. That part is quite scary if your trying to build a real business because only thing i was afraid of in our business Not a normal competitor.

01:05:36: Like, if we're fighting fairly similar kind of situation I'm totally fine like let's do it.

01:05:43: The only thing that was worried about is... A competitor who comes in That's incredibly good at fundraising and burning money Because when they come in And then i have to compete with them You know?

01:05:55: And im trying make money but they are not.

01:05:58: Well now i have problem Right because their just gonna give audiobooks away for everyone For free And they don't care if it works or not, right?

01:06:09: As long as whatever vanity metrics go up and for us that would be difficult.

01:06:14: Right.

01:06:14: so I was quite happy That this switch happened in the last couple years.

01:06:18: We don't really think about now.

01:06:19: you remind me there was out our fear at Batman.

01:06:23: Yeah Now is not that case anymore

01:06:26: yeah.

01:06:27: So now like now when people when it's about making money, like okay great.

01:06:31: Like its a fair fight

01:06:32: and I feel that the lesson i learned from this time with Fonoos is more realistic also... Realistic about what do you want to achieve?

01:06:42: And What can I do?

01:06:46: Everytime before When I create anything Oh!

01:06:49: I can expand around the world which was very good for me because It gives me push Up to some point.

01:06:59: I learned that, you know there's limitation There and have to be realistic.

01:07:05: So in funnels.

01:07:06: You know i kind of no like okay Where how far this can grow over examples?

01:07:12: I remember Some investor asking if we can Be a unicorn with this.

01:07:16: now is an oh If you look for a unit coin It's not us right it's Not.

01:07:23: if We want To do A Unicorn Business It's not going to be a book.

01:07:28: There is no in Vietnam and there are no audiobooks, you know?

01:07:34: Audiobook is way smaller than books.

01:07:36: if it now And only for Vietnamese We're not trying to be unicorn with this But we can ten X your investment.

01:07:45: So that what you looking for That' s what were sharing.

01:07:51: I think What i learned was Be more realistic And that helped me with raising money.

01:07:57: Because when you're real, how much?

01:08:00: You don't get too much or to little and also find the right partner With a realistic vision about where the company can go.

01:08:09: It's really helpful

01:08:11: I would add for your audience if they are thinking about raising money Or considering it The way Sunset is.

01:08:24: First, you need to know what you want.

01:08:26: Not with the investment fund but your one for this company right?

01:08:29: What kind of path are you trying to go?

01:08:32: Are you're trying to grow this tour?

01:08:34: You know billion-dollar Company within five years and it's that or dies.

01:08:40: That's okay.

01:08:40: if that's what you won't write like hey I'm going through the casino.

01:08:44: um This is it right?

01:08:45: i'm jumping off And either I will end It With zero Or I Will make a Billion Dollars Great!

01:08:51: You can right, or if you want some other path.

01:08:55: But you need to first decide for yourself what you want and then kind of go the right investors with a right mindset because even if they invest in your company They have different goals and incentives than you.

01:09:11: an easy example is let's say You start a company and I'm a VC And I invested new.

01:09:17: i have nine Or fifteen other investments.

01:09:21: So my incentive is I want you to go as hard as possible.

01:09:25: Worst case.

01:09:26: You got a business, I have fourteen other investments.

01:09:28: might my day goes on like I move on right?

01:09:31: Like oh well too bad I Want the other.

01:09:34: maybe one of the other ones will win.

01:09:37: you just spent five two ten years Of your life pulling Your blood sweat and tears into this business And you have nothing at The end-to-show for it.

01:09:44: yeah so the incentives are very different.

01:09:47: That doesn't mean they're bad people, nothing.

01:09:49: It's just different incentives right?

01:09:50: So you need to be aware of that.

01:09:54: You getting bankrupt for them is not that big a deal.

01:09:57: For you.

01:09:57: it might be a very big deal

01:09:59: I wouldn't say incentives but the situation Is totally different when it comes to security net Right.

01:10:04: both have the interest of the company growing But as you say At least i've seen many companies that grew too fast due to investor pressure.

01:10:12: I would say The incentive is there because my incentive As an investor Especially this is because of VCs, right?

01:10:21: So if we're talking about other investors that are not venture capital it might be different.

01:10:26: In VC specifically If you build a company and you sell for twenty million euros or dollars or whatever

01:10:33: That's failure for them.

01:10:34: rather

01:10:35: I don't care as a VC Right like that literally Like i would rather You risk everything to try To get two five hundred million or billion Allright then make twenty bucks For you however Right?

01:10:48: A twenty million exit and maybe you only get to take half of it or whatever.

01:10:52: Kind of a big deal, right?

01:10:54: Like changes your life and like your kids' lives completely.

01:10:58: so the incentive is really different.

01:11:00: So you do need to consider it And there are different investors looking for different things in different fund sizes.

01:11:06: even if There's a VC with a ten-million dollar fund Or a VC without two hundred million dollar funds That Is a huge difference.

01:11:15: people might think oh It's the same thing If they invest in.

01:11:17: You know The ten million dollar guy.

01:11:20: if you exit for fifty million he might be happy.

01:11:24: the two hundred million Dollar Guy, If You Exit For Fifty Million He Doesn't Care Right?

01:11:29: Yeah?

01:11:29: So

01:11:30: This Is A Fund Returner Game They Are Playing.

01:11:32: they're Looking for Outliers.

01:11:33: You're Totally right and it Might Be More Attractive to Have a Small Company for you as a Founder that has okay Revenue or Big exit money, as you said.

01:11:41: Fifty percent of twenty million is quite a bit compared to I don't know zero point whatever percent off the big exit.

01:11:47: Yeah right um i mean give me an idea.

01:11:50: by the way I never asked You because i'm rather interested in this story and your ideas And your personalities.

01:11:55: Um how much users does phonos have?

01:11:57: How much revenue do you guys make?

01:11:59: How many employees Do you have?

01:12:00: this typical cocktail party thing founders ask each other

01:12:04: yeah so we Don't share kind.

01:12:07: Our number is completely publicly.

01:12:09: We have three and a half million downloads.

01:12:13: Yeah, our revenue we don't really share right but The employee numbers are funny.

01:12:19: one because we five no No way wish yeah?

01:12:23: We wish like.

01:12:24: the funny thing is like we found that inexperienced entrepreneurs liked to Bragg about their employees numbers And with experienced employees, it's exactly the other way around.

01:12:36: They like to brag how small their team is and how few employees they have.

01:12:40: right because you realize at some point It's like man The more you have the more headaches you have.

01:12:48: But to answer your question we have Like thirty five Around employees.

01:12:54: You're totally right.

01:12:54: As I said, this cocktail party phenomenon when they say who's invested in you?

01:12:58: How much we see that you get?

01:13:00: how many employees how many revenue?

01:13:01: and none of these four aspects KPIs tells anything about the success of your business.

01:13:06: None of them.

01:13:07: hmm Right.

01:13:08: so um

01:13:09: i mean it is quite tricky.

01:13:10: uh i mean there's a funny meme.

01:13:13: i don't remember their details but It kind of There's like A priority list Of what people Say depending on how good Their Business Is doing.

01:13:20: no Of course, sometimes you want to keep things quiet.

01:13:23: But when talking to investors it's like well if you have profit we talk about profit If you don't have a revenue.

01:13:32: You talked about user growth right?

01:13:34: If you do not have users and fund raising or something else We can look that up.

01:13:42: It is funny thing.

01:13:43: very true Employee numbers are even revenues Without knowing your costs and everything it's like, you know okay.

01:13:51: You're doing ten million in revenue But you're burning through your entire fund raise And here you might be out of business in six months.

01:13:58: It's like is that great?

01:14:00: That you're doing two million in Revenue?

01:14:01: hard to say so.

01:14:03: these numbers are very Yeah there tricky depending on how without seeing the whole board.

01:14:09: now There's one aspect we haven't talked about and I'm asked quite a bit because they have the same situation As far as I understood, you guys.

01:14:16: It's not only that you share a desk but also life right?

01:14:19: And quite often asked how does it feel to found the company has a couple?

01:14:25: do You know?

01:14:25: are you all of the time?

01:14:26: what is it like to do this about you?

01:14:34: So we always say if someone Yeah Like If Someone Asked Us if We Recommended We Would Say No Even Though for us it Works Great.

01:14:44: Right because it completely depends on your personality types.

01:14:48: and Like one simple example, I think is How you handle conflict?

01:14:54: And how do you handle?

01:14:54: stress will really depend on different people different personality types right.

01:14:58: so we are the type that i feel when things get tough like We almost grow closer.

01:15:06: And like You know we don't like never wants to Attack the other person because we're stressed or something is tough.

01:15:17: So for us, it works really well and We were cautious about in early days like we didn't necessarily want to get into business together.

01:15:27: It kind of happened.

01:15:28: And then okay let's see if that works.

01:15:30: Then lets decide how this project goes.

01:15:32: but now its working.

01:15:34: But then it worked very good.

01:15:38: I think it depends on personality and experience.

01:15:44: I would not, I wouldn't work with him.

01:15:48: It doesn't matter he's my husband or is it not my husband?

01:15:52: And because i worked with him and people think that they choose me as their husband to work with them... No!

01:15:57: Because He had a certain thing fit in his mind so we can be compatible as a team for this project.

01:16:08: So With That I Think That's Easier because I don't really plan to work with husband.

01:16:18: And we've met some of our favorite investors that invested in us, there are also a couple who had very successful business and exit in Singapore.

01:16:30: they're like very successful angel investors now.

01:16:34: so We have met other couples that do well.

01:16:37: Us.

01:16:37: is he doing his thing?

01:16:42: We have very different strengths, where we can be compatible and not step on each other.

01:16:48: And even with office...we had two offices!

01:16:52: So he in one office I mean the other's office....We really have different meetings.

01:16:58: so it is not designed like that.

01:17:02: but because he takes care of a lot of things..and i trust him and his thing and vice versa.

01:17:08: If that's important, if I'm partnered up with a partner and have similar strength maybe we're a proper.

01:17:19: And what works for us also is there are certain rules both of respect them For example like... We both come to top business after work at home.

01:17:32: Even when you see each other or seeing him in person You don't even want to talk Like, and if sometime I talk about work he will remind me.

01:17:46: And I respect that in like...and i remind him and they'll respect that which is still our thing.

01:17:51: so we kind of sip.

01:17:55: it's simple to say but the-the thing is you have to find someone who can do that right?

01:18:02: I..I can't be switched off because I want me time too when need him.

01:18:07: So we wait until the next morning to talk about it.

01:18:12: Oh, We plan a meeting sometime.

01:18:14: I feel like why he's here and i cannot just say what I want but that somehow It works.

01:18:22: Somehow I feel yeah its good to delay because Because of delaying talking to him?

01:18:29: I have more time to digest idea And I don't just come to him with full of my emotions.

01:18:37: Yesterday, i just learned that it's called MA in Japan.

01:18:39: That Japanese couples was written M-A... ...I guess its pronounced MA?

01:18:45: They say okay let not talk for five minutes Just breathe Not look at each other and think Because an active brain always goes into defense mode.

01:18:55: Where a regulated brain is consumed The

01:19:04: delaying is really helpful.

01:19:31: Business activities or personal life?

01:19:35: I like both.

01:19:36: Okay, let me just off the top of my head... ...I think one long-term decision making.

01:19:46: so i would say that really set us apart from the competition.

01:19:50: From day one we were thinking about not doing necessarily what was easiest with signing the first publishing partner.

01:20:00: you know, we could have had a deal in a month.

01:20:03: If we just went with non-exclusive whatever was already standard at that time.

01:20:08: instead it took us nine months to sign the first deal of negotiations but We were setting the foundation for the long term kind of exclusive deals and structure That would pay off for years to come.

01:20:21: So I think we've done quite frequently With our payment model, pricing structure really thinking longterm And not just what's convenient and easy right now.

01:20:32: That's one thing.

01:20:33: second, I would say is willingness to question everything.

01:20:39: so we do this quite frequently Just naturally as an exercise.

01:20:43: where?

01:20:44: We will Push back on our ideas and challenge each other or each other together.

01:20:50: challenge idea Right of like.

01:20:52: oh you're saying Let's say your saying we should replace all of our voice sounds with AI mm-hmm.

01:20:59: Okay, let's argue against it.

01:21:01: Why not?

01:21:01: Why yes to push back right and sometimes she someone will challenge me or I will challenge her.

01:21:06: we'll both challenge the idea together And there are no sacred cows.

01:21:11: so there is anything can be challenged Right No matter how normal It Is.

01:21:17: Or what We're Doing.

01:21:18: Or Oh We were.

01:21:20: We Were Sure For Three Years That This Was The Best Idea Ever.

01:21:23: You Can Still Challenge It And We Can Still Have To Argue Against Yes Or No and be willing to change your attitude.

01:21:34: We both share that trait, we're not married to the idea... Rather it turns out that we were wrong for last five years.

01:21:42: but now we realize this and are going to change And can go forward in a better way?

01:21:47: Yeah!

01:21:48: We don't debate on any ideas like marriage to any of them.

01:21:53: So I would say these two big ones do you have any...?

01:21:57: You think that helped us?

01:21:59: For growth.

01:22:00: Yeah,

01:22:03: could also be personal growth.

01:22:04: feel free

01:22:05: I think for me Also focus and saying no Why it's important like i think i say No enough.

01:22:15: But then when i check as a if i say no enough why i Still exhausted at the end of the day Why i still Haven't achieved The goal That i want Am I do something wrong here?

01:22:34: And i just recognize it.

01:22:35: back to that.

01:22:36: I don't say no enough.

01:22:38: So when you think is a no enough maybe, you're not.

01:22:41: i'll take That with me.

01:22:43: i can totally understand.

01:22:45: Keeping what was it called in english if You know these artists who spin plates on small different wooden sticks and It fits sometimes feels like okay keeping ten plates Rotating at the same time but its so exhausting.

01:22:58: yeah totally feel that awesome guys.

01:23:01: By the way, is it possible to listen to FONOS as well if you're not based in Vietnam?

01:23:06: So could German-Vietnamese also consume it.

01:23:07: Yeah

01:23:08: We have.

01:23:10: we have a user base all over the world so some of our markets are Japan South Korea US Australia Also in Germany.

01:23:20: Wow!

01:23:21: That

01:23:22: was an inspiring conversation, right?

01:23:24: Think about it.

01:23:26: Subscribe to the podcast for

01:23:28: sure.

01:23:30: If you haven't missed any episodes, please share them with your friends

01:23:37: or colleagues.

01:23:48: Until next time!

01:23:50: Stay inspired and curious!

01:23:57: Your Joel.