🇭🇺 Business Coach: The hidden code behind your behavior

00:00:00: We tend to hold on to certain beliefs and we tend to holding onto certain truths.

00:00:05: And, we are fooling ourselves!

00:00:08: My job is not be liked by my clients... ...my job is help them.

00:00:13: Radical honesty sometimes it's way more important than empathy.

00:00:18: So my job is balance these two things Your emotions aren't you your thoughts aren' t you.. ..your believes or core assumptions aren´t you.

00:00:27: They're a product of social conditioning, they serve you well but they should not sit behind the steering wheel.

00:00:35: You should sit behind

00:00:36: a steering wheel!

00:00:56: Hi five guys this is Joel and today we have a Wisdom Wednesday which means that I have an interesting person here next to me who's talking about The Five Things He Would Have Loved To Know When he Was Twenty.

00:01:06: And as you might see if your following us on YouTube in the background We're under palms in Vietnam because this lovely man here next to me, he's from Hungary but lives in Vietnam.

00:01:17: In Ho Chi Minh City too be exact and his name is Zolt Tökulli!

00:01:21: And Zolt is an executive coach and corporate trainer... ...and actually I'm not going to tell you guys too much about him because i guess by talking to him it's much more interesting to get into touch with all of these.

00:01:31: so today we're really curious because Lars my friend from Gradient said oh you need talk to zolt?

00:01:37: He was the coolest coach ever.

00:01:40: Yes, so this is a journey of curiosity today I guess.

00:01:43: So nice to meet you!

00:01:44: What a pleasure.

00:01:45: And i always start asking people for their age... ...I know it's really rude especially in Asia but its interesting to understand.

00:01:51: like from what point of time do we look back at the twenty?

00:01:53: How old are you?

00:01:54: I'm fifty-three

00:01:55: Fifty three okay yeah that's quite a bit.

00:01:59: Do

00:01:59: want me be younger?

00:02:01: No no.. I love it.

00:02:02: anyway

00:02:03: I can go back if you

00:02:05: want me too.

00:02:06: No your perfect.

00:02:09: But let's dive a bit into your life maybe in advance before we start right with the five different things.

00:02:13: How does it come that an Hungarian lives in Vietnam?

00:02:17: Well, I only had one job in my life helping people and organizations change.

00:02:23: And i did that for long time In Hungary growing With A training company.

00:02:29: That turned Into An HR Consulting Company which was a fascinating trip.

00:02:39: I think it's very helpful for everyone to leave their home country, hometown and get slapped on the face by radically different culture.

00:02:51: that was Singapore for me And after few years...I actually had a project here in Ho Chi Minh City and i fell in love with Vietnam.

00:03:01: I think you probably know what i'm talking about.

00:03:03: The vibes, the people and colors.

00:03:05: it's all amazing.

00:03:06: so... ...I found my new home in Vietnam for the past eight years.

00:03:13: Vibes is a perfect word to describe this because.. ..I tend say that we need to sit on our vespas once And travel across Ho Chi Minh city To understand them.

00:03:23: It's right there Right?

00:03:24: Yes!

00:03:25: Ninh Hieu and the kindness at same time Unbelievable.

00:03:29: Yeah, no road rage.

00:03:29: that's the funny part.

00:03:30: It's so chaotic but at the same time quite peaceful in a way

00:03:33: kind of nice.

00:03:34: yeah

00:03:34: I always compare it with fish like big fish swarm.

00:03:37: That goes to the sea and you know Everyone works together.

00:03:40: end the food off course?

00:03:41: Okay cool But

00:03:42: anyway let's get into details.

00:03:44: as i said five things i wish i knew when i was twenty.

00:03:46: What's your first thing?

00:03:48: i only have one thing joel.

00:03:49: One can

00:03:51: break the pattern.

00:03:52: are we okay with that?

00:03:53: because

00:03:55: You will see my one thing is in a way, a reflection on the five things.

00:04:01: It's about... The Five Things, Five Truths.

00:04:04: So if you're okay with that Let see.

00:04:07: Breaking the pattern.

00:04:09: I know it hurts!

00:04:10: Its'a lovely pattern right?

00:04:11: I feel

00:04:12: slightly uncomfortable but i'm curious where it leads me to.

00:04:14: so yeah let's step into it.

00:04:15: Anything I can do make more comfortable?

00:04:18: Tell

00:04:18: me though the one.

00:04:19: so

00:04:22: Before I tell you the big framework I was wondering if you would like to do a quick exercise.

00:04:30: I love exercises,

00:04:30: of course!

00:04:31: Okay so it's something that i do all the time in training and coaching.

00:04:34: It is very quick one called Unfinished Sentences.

00:04:40: You have talked with hundreds successful leaders on the podcast.

00:04:44: They shared their five things inside Takeaways.

00:04:52: Could you complete This sentence?

00:04:55: for me, great leaders are

00:05:02: empathetic.

00:05:03: Adaptable innovative team oriented creative.

00:05:12: Okay that sounds like a laundry list.

00:05:13: give me one that is like One that stands out the most for you?

00:05:18: That speaks to You The Most.

00:05:20: I would say it's two of them and the one Is the ability or to adapt To change mm-hmm And second one is um took care For people to take them into consideration, to take with you.

00:05:33: So one is the ability to change and adapt?

00:05:36: And another is care about people around you – team members colleagues friends family stuff like that.

00:05:43: if you have to choose one.

00:05:46: You're really talking like a coach.

00:05:48: yeah

00:05:49: I guess i would go for that ability.

00:05:51: okay great leaders are able to adapt new situations.

00:05:57: Okay, my question would be can you dig a little bit deeper about?

00:06:03: where does this belief come from?

00:06:07: What's the history?

00:06:12: Short interjection is really funny.

00:06:14: No I need to think!

00:06:15: Yeah that's your

00:06:16: lecture or situation.

00:06:17: are

00:06:18: you paying for this making new thing?

00:06:20: i know it's painful.

00:06:25: The thing is...I witnessed quite a few people who came from Germany and in germany right now Change is really hard for a lot of people.

00:06:33: and then I came to the realization that change Being different tomorrow than you have been today.

00:06:40: It's actually an essential part of life.

00:06:42: You need to change all the time whether it's from kindergarten, school or whatever to university etc.

00:06:48: So the ability To interact with your surroundings And to...to change yourself seems very important because if you want to lead others you Need be able to adapt.

00:06:59: in this environment And I guess this is where it comes from, that quite often i see Germans like oh we did this that way all the time.

00:07:06: It was done like that forever.

00:07:08: why should be changing?

00:07:09: That's maybe very German but This Is what I witness and always tend to say you Why come on let's do a differently or Let's take this route to work and funnily... ...I haven't been Like that in The Very Beginning because.. ..i can remember my first intern.

00:07:23: he Always Was kind of sad Because We went To the same dinner place or lunch place when we had a head lunch and said, hey come on.

00:07:31: We're living in Berlin here.

00:07:32: It's so

00:07:33: full of food.

00:07:34: Why not try something else?

00:07:35: Okay So went to different places I took the same meal over and over again And then slowly slowly after month and years off you know being In this startup ecosystem i started changing but anyway i digress.

00:07:47: You

00:07:47: always learn for the same dish

00:07:50: Kind-of similar

00:07:51: dishes

00:07:52: close each other.

00:07:53: I would, yeah or chicken curry or something and then...I wouldn't go for, I don't know,

00:07:59: crabs also Yeah

00:08:01: How do you call it seashells?

00:08:02: Or something

00:08:03: like that?

00:08:04: You know because of being um how what'd you called it?

00:08:07: Not being afraid but be careful.

00:08:11: Don't know

00:08:17: why.

00:08:19: It's always

00:08:20: new.

00:08:21: You gotta to be careful You gotta be careful.

00:08:23: Yeah, it makes sense.

00:08:24: So here's the question I would ask if you were sitting in my coaching seat The ability to adapt and openness to change.

00:08:37: What are the situations when It might actually get in your way this belief?

00:08:47: You mean when its not helpful to able to adapt?

00:08:49: that

00:08:50: is exactly what i meant.

00:08:51: Well, obviously in situations that ask for the same way of doing something over and over again.

00:08:57: For instance if you're an industry or a car manufacturer need to do this stuff always at the same quality then it doesn't have too much.

00:09:07: If your guy like myself who is slightly neurodiverse Who's always interested in new stuff In exchange You know let's do differently.

00:09:14: It so boring.

00:09:15: Whenever I had some kind checklist I do the first thing, second things and then all of a sudden it would be fun to do the tenths or the fifteenth.

00:09:25: So this is actually situation where isn't helpful i'd say.

00:09:28: Hmm... I see And This Is What I've Found Fascinating!

00:09:33: And this my what can observe with basically every single executive that I work With which in our twenties we We are facing the big existential questions, right?

00:09:51: How can I be successful.

00:09:53: how Can i differentiate myself from others?

00:09:55: what am i better at than other's ?

00:10:00: How can i Be happy?

00:10:01: and we find some answers Right and throughout The years those answer our accomplishments achievements Reinforce Those Answers.

00:10:14: so by Our thirties And forties what happens is that those beliefs, those truths quote-unquote, calcify into identity.

00:10:27: At this point we cannot even see these truth from a distance.

00:10:32: it's just the way things are and there is problem.

00:10:39: I call this the answer trap.

00:10:42: There is massive problems because twenty years have passed And we rely on certain realizations and truths from our twenties.

00:10:52: Of course, we do that because those made us successful right?

00:10:55: We have data to prove they work!

00:10:59: The problem is that you are in a radically different situation... ...we're at the different company, industry or life stage.

00:11:07: everything has changed around us but still hold onto these truths because they worked before.

00:11:15: When we face situations that they don't necessarily work before, We're looking for clues to blame the circumstances instead of questioning those truths.

00:11:25: And I think this phenomenon is in my experience happened To every single successful leader Every single person.

00:11:36: i would say This this phenomenon Of being stuck with our answers That are coming from decades ago.

00:11:46: Yeah, I was about to say...I would sometimes even think that it was the child age where quite a few people formed their identity.

00:11:54: And were they behave in a way?

00:11:56: I just recently had a podcast about hypnosis and she said when you're in this conscious state what happens is i can dig through your ideas inside of your head because The brain only works on presence present time.

00:12:10: It does not know past and doesn't no future.

00:12:13: so basically You could say Every way of acting makes sense, but it might not make sense right now.

00:12:22: Because your brain might have picked up something in the past for instance.

00:12:25: I don't know... ...I am used to being alone because my parents worked so much So i'm use to helping myself.. ..i struggle.

00:12:33: take help from others.

00:12:35: I'm happy be independent

00:12:36: Exactly!

00:12:37: This is a belief you build-up at child age and present day.

00:12:41: when working with company or team.

00:12:45: Disrespectful act actually negative for your way of working.

00:12:49: But it makes sense from a brain perspective because it was built here and is now applied.

00:12:53: Here so but coming back to the topic as you said It's this these identity themes You see what which are build up, but aren't changed over time.

00:13:03: Yeah How do you deal with that like?

00:13:05: What do you do with your clients then?

00:13:07: okay um me I tell your story field story at show story.

00:13:11: So I was working with a politician Very high level, like let's say top three political position holder in her respective country.

00:13:22: She is a lady and she asked me very simple thing election campaign was coming up.

00:13:28: Her opponents were very charismatic great communicators.

00:13:32: She wanted to be better at charisma And specifically being funny on stage TV debates those kind of things right?

00:13:43: And I was like, okay.I'm happy to help you.

00:13:46: So i shadowed her and watched in public events.

00:13:50: She was flat.

00:13:51: she was bland boring cold distant.

00:13:55: so we sit down We have a conversation about.

00:13:57: it turns out...she Was super funny when we talked right?

00:14:02: She was literally making me laugh and im supposed To be the serious coach and i was like hey hang on what is going On here?

00:14:13: There are two different personas at work for her, the public persona and private persona.

00:14:18: So I asked her a similar question.

00:14:21: actually How would you finish this sentence?

00:14:24: Great politicians are And she immediately gave me an answer.

00:14:29: She didn't have the laundry list like yours.

00:14:31: Okay!

00:14:32: She told me great politicians Are classy Like The Queen of England.

00:14:39: That was the role model.

00:14:40: It started from a very early age, I think her teenage years.

00:14:43: The Queen of England back then Was classy elegant respect

00:14:48: respectable

00:14:49: right and she carried that image And it turned into From.

00:14:55: this is what i want to be Into.

00:14:58: This Is Who I am?

00:15:00: And this is for exactly who I'm supposed To Be.

00:15:03: So at that point There is no point talking about how to crack jokes on stage, right?

00:15:10: Because if I give her the skills.

00:15:12: If i talk about timing and telling stories And all that technical stuff It would have bounced back because there's a larger power at work which is classy like The Queen of England.

00:15:27: Don't be a clown.

00:15:29: She literally used these words with me Like...I should not- I'm NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A CLOWN So..i should elegant classy in my behavior.

00:15:38: So we had to work with the identity before we ever talk about communication, right?

00:15:45: And that is a larger power that prevents the very change she desired.

00:15:51: She knew it would be funny but there was an invisible power at play which prevented her desire.

00:15:59: So actually identity overrode behavior?

00:16:02: Yeah!

00:16:02: Behavior followed from identity... It

00:16:04: does!!

00:16:05: It's a larger Power.

00:16:07: So, what can we do?

00:16:10: Is the question.

00:16:12: What to do about it?

00:16:16: The thing is like.

00:16:17: I see this.

00:16:18: my favorite metaphor for This is downloading apps.

00:16:22: right when you See an interesting new idea It's like downloading a new app.

00:16:28: right boom that's fascinating.

00:16:30: Okay download it there as you read A book.

00:16:33: There's An Interesting Idea in That.

00:16:34: okay I download that app.

00:16:36: You listen to a podcast conversation with Joel and there's a guest who is telling the five things, two of them are really resonating with you.

00:16:43: it like downloading an app.

00:16:45: What happens when your phone downloads too many apps?

00:16:50: It gets full out-of space

00:16:52: And it slows down, right?

00:16:54: It has real serious impact on speed.

00:16:57: So my metaphor is upgrading the Ops system instead of downloading new apps.

00:17:04: So what we do is I'm not giving her new ideas about how to be funny.

00:17:09: We're talking about the operating system, which is The identity level.

00:17:13: work.

00:17:14: so first step Is let's examine the triggers?

00:17:18: What are the situations that triggers her To Be classy?

00:17:24: when does there the Queen trigger?

00:17:26: we called it Entered a picture okay and basically It was like Almost all the time when I'm surrounded by journalists cameras Voters.

00:17:39: that's a trigger.

00:17:40: be like the Queen.

00:17:41: Okay, The second step is What?

00:17:47: Is the what is the emotional psychological need behind this trigger?

00:17:53: because most of the time there is some sort of a psychological need That creates that trigger and for her that need was respect.

00:18:00: i want people to see To treat me respected, I want to look and be someone who is worthy of respect.

00:18:11: Okay good that's a very healthy... That belief!

00:18:15: And the whole queen idea.

00:18:18: let me give you a quick food note here.

00:18:20: this is not coming from trauma.

00:18:22: This isn't self-limiting believe right?

00:18:27: I want to be classy.

00:18:28: There's no problem with that.

00:18:29: It's kind of like, it's important to adapt and change.

00:18:33: This is a noble genuinely supportive ideas.

00:18:36: So we're not fighting demons.

00:18:38: here We are finding something that is genuinely helpful.

00:18:41: But in her case You know...it worked against her.

00:18:46: Step number three What could the second voice?

00:18:52: The first voice is Be Like the Queen.

00:18:55: That's the automatic response the unquestionable trigger, be like a queen.

00:19:03: Second voice is how.

00:19:05: what can you learn yourself to think?

00:19:09: What should it's second internal voice in your head as response of first voice which was Be Like The Queen and we worked alot about that because we needed to resolve conflict off being funny & classy.

00:19:23: In her mind there were contradictions.

00:19:25: they too could not live together.

00:19:27: So we were working.

00:19:29: We were watching YouTube videos.

00:19:31: Joey like.

00:19:32: who could be politicians?

00:19:35: Who are respected classy yet funny, right?

00:19:39: We need to...we needed to redefine the identity and we ended up with Obama.

00:19:45: Yeah What did you say?

00:19:47: You had the same in mind.

00:19:48: yeah It's a perfect example for that regardless of politics.

00:19:52: He is very charming charismatic politician And he is Well respected.

00:20:01: So what we did was, this is the code word Obama.

00:20:04: This was a second voice Whenever she felt like.

00:20:08: okay I need to be classy now Queen Trigger.

00:20:12: We planted... We discussed many times.

00:20:15: Okay Be like Obama Be Obama.

00:20:17: You can't be funny Charismatic Informal.

00:20:21: even You can shorten distance between yourself and audience and then when you accept that, if start acting naturally the jokes will come.

00:20:35: And from your experience does it work to overcome these obstacles inside of your mind by creating mindful exercises like this?

00:20:45: Because what I witnessed is somehow...I once learned about trauma which has been written in our body.

00:20:50: It's hard for us because we need to absorb it into a body.

00:20:54: And i realized could go therapy at ages And nothing happens really, you know what I mean?

00:21:01: Yet coaching in the sense of... I would say coaching is also about intervention.

00:21:08: Coaching a little different than therapy.

00:21:10: it's more like about exercises.

00:21:12: but still i had an idea that sometimes people stick to these autopilot modes You're installing into your system.

00:21:22: Sometimes they aren't updated, so they get more and more.

00:21:24: And quite often people go into this autopilot mode.

00:21:28: is it really possible to get out of this just by building up mental ideas?

00:21:34: Is it possible?

00:21:35: yes or easy?

00:21:39: no We are fighting decades of conditioning here because those ideas even if start from our teenage years They got reinforced by our accomplishments by the external environment, by our parents.

00:21:53: By teachers and friends.

00:21:55: so basically it's like literally fighting decades of conditioning.

00:22:00: So I'm not necessarily saying that The only way to approach this is find a code word.

00:22:06: like Obama It works for her.

00:22:09: For other people it works differently.

00:22:11: For others the second voice could be something like calm down This is fine.

00:22:17: or the second voice could be something like, you got this.

00:22:20: So there are different ways.

00:22:22: sometimes I don't even talk about uh...second voices.

00:22:26: we just experiment.

00:22:28: for example i work with an executive who was probably most logical rational person ive ever met.

00:22:35: why?

00:22:35: turns out that was a differentiating factor at school when he was bullied and his smarts were thing made her feel good by himself Right?

00:22:46: That was the differentiating factor.

00:22:48: So he identified with critical thinking, rational thinking numbers data.

00:22:55: when does it work?

00:22:57: against him is when He needs to open up to his team members To be emotional and show emotions to acknowledge emotions on their side right.

00:23:06: so there were no code words for this.

00:23:09: For these we are using experimentation.

00:23:12: Okay There will Low stakes meeting coming up, an offside.

00:23:17: that is a team building.

00:23:19: You cannot really lose much.

00:23:21: How about trying opening the off side with personal keynote speech About your life?

00:23:30: Something you haven't shared before.

00:23:33: So it's like baby steps.

00:23:37: There was no need for identifying second voice because trigger wasn't so strong.

00:23:43: If it makes sense.

00:23:46: What would you say?

00:23:47: Is there some kind of best before date?

00:23:50: when it comes to these triggers or this... You know, how long do they last?

00:23:56: and what is a too late?

00:23:57: right yeah When is it like that's it your gun?

00:23:59: This is

00:24:00: who get watered.

00:24:00: This is where you will be.

00:24:02: I don't think There's an expiration date.

00:24:06: i really don't thing.

00:24:07: so i believe That people can Be helped to create a distance between themselves and their beliefs.

00:24:17: It's never too late.

00:24:19: Yeah, the more it has calcified The more difficult is this.

00:24:24: to challenge that.

00:24:26: But...the simple idea of do not identify with your beliefs Do not be a prisoner of your assumptions.

00:24:33: That's powerful.

00:24:34: ideas work at any age

00:24:37: And I mean from what you just said It isn't black or white, it's somehow grayscale.

00:24:42: because on the one hand

00:24:58: thing from a complexity angle.

00:25:13: Our life in twenty-twenty six on this planet is super complex, it's way more complex than we could understand right?

00:25:21: So there's natural desire for everyone to have simple answers the black and white as you mentioned.

00:25:28: And that why?

00:25:30: just a side note populism is so widespread all over the world because It provides simple answer very complex questions.

00:25:38: I could name a lot of examples, maybe that's not our job here.

00:25:46: So there is general tendency to find oversimplified answers wherever we look and it's a trap because life is very complex.

00:25:56: so i think this exactly the process you describe.

00:26:00: Yeah can remember.

00:26:02: my wife just said she brought in an SMS oh wow your husband is genius.

00:26:08: And I said this to a friend.

00:26:09: He says, look how nice he is!

00:26:11: How lovely it's that.

00:26:12: and she's the

00:26:13: psychologist.".

00:26:14: You know?

00:26:14: That really big compliment because geniuses basically died out.

00:26:18: The last universal genius was like three hundred two five years ago.

00:26:22: Goethe.

00:26:23: you might say

00:26:23: Yeah

00:26:24: It wasn't the last Universal Genius.

00:26:26: Why ?

00:26:26: Because... ...it's not life got more complicated but the amount of information we get Out-of-this complexity has increased.

00:26:33: In the past there were these newspapers where they took ages until you learn all those stuff.

00:26:37: But the amount of knowledge is so much bigger now that you can't be a genius anymore.

00:26:42: So I'm not saying i am a genius, but just like this compliment and The idea of life got so complex That it's impossible for one person to understand most of the world

00:26:52: One lifetime isn't enough Exactly!

00:26:55: You cannot read all books that you would want to read or watch all movies that you'd love to see Or meet other people who you'd like to meet.

00:27:05: It's really hard for everyone to deal with that idea, the complexity.

00:27:11: So what we do?

00:27:12: We oversimplify... ...we tend to hold on to certain beliefs and we tend to holding onto certain truths And we are fooling ourselves.

00:27:21: basically.

00:27:22: Now you did some kind of simplification by asking her What is one aspect a great politician had But I guess in here there's more than one autopilot.

00:27:32: It not only classical but it would be like The British Queen.

00:27:37: How to deal with that if you have different ideas of your identity?

00:27:41: That actually combine.

00:27:43: Do we do it like spaghetti, let's take one out after the other and then... The next follows!

00:27:47: The funny thing is this-that a very good question.

00:27:49: actually You don't need too work for the spaghetti.

00:27:53: It's more like hamburger.

00:27:57: So there's bread And in middle there are meat.

00:28:03: What I've found For most executives that I work with, the reason for being lost or being held up is one core issue.

00:28:18: That's an identity issue It's not.

00:28:20: there are like six Identity issues that i only have to solve One by one.

00:28:25: The spaghetti know they're.

00:28:26: the meat in the middle Is one core assumption Or belief and if you resolve debt Everything falls into place.

00:28:36: I've got a word

00:28:51: for that.

00:29:04: from unlocking their potential.

00:29:06: And then they brought another issue, oh by the way let's talk about communication as well because we only talked about decision making and it turns out that communication path led back to the same identity issue as well.

00:29:18: so the good news is that we don't have to fight several demons at the same time.

00:29:24: The bad News Is That One Demon We Have

00:29:27: Is Returning Carey

00:29:28: Enough.

00:29:29: Yeah That's Scary & Large & Dark enough.

00:29:33: What was your demon, the big demon you built up?

00:29:37: My Demon was a lowly demon.

00:29:39: actually The way I finished this sentence when I was at the early stages of my career.

00:29:47: great trainers are great.

00:29:48: coaches are Empathy.

00:29:50: that was my Northam star.

00:29:54: be empathetic.

00:29:55: It's always helpful it's Always good its unquestionable right And I still remember the moment when it changed.

00:30:11: You want to hear this story?

00:30:12: Of course!

00:30:15: It's a very funny story, can we use swear words here?

00:30:21: Oh you do okay...I wasn't sure about that.

00:30:23: so i'm in Budapest working with a Hungarian executive.

00:30:27: he worked actually..it was German multinational company and all his managers were german And we've been working for like half a year at that time.

00:30:38: We had a coaching session.

00:30:40: when he constantly brings up issues with his managers because the Germans always liked this, you have to really understand what is their expectations?

00:30:51: sometimes they don't communicate in very straightforward way.

00:30:55: stuff like that.

00:30:57: Coaching sessions are over And we're walking back to a place and on the streets of Budapest.

00:31:04: He continues complaining about German managers, I was like... I'm thinking you are fooling yourself!

00:31:14: This is self-deception.

00:31:16: how can i get out this trap?

00:31:22: At one point I looked at him and said fuck you.

00:31:31: And in Hungarian, it involves his mother.

00:31:34: So even worse!

00:31:37: It's really bad stuff okay?

00:31:42: I remember he looked at me like shocked.

00:31:45: and i was shocked too because...I never used those words ever before In business

00:31:53: right?!

00:31:54: We both look now what?

00:31:59: What is going to happen then?

00:32:02: It was a shock for him because nobody told him fuck you before and it was the shock for me.

00:32:07: Because I never used those words before, And i realized that we both needed that shock.

00:32:12: He needed this shock.

00:32:14: he needed that slap on his face... ...because he lost in pointing fingers.

00:32:22: Empathy my guiding light Was not good enough to help get out of that trap right?

00:32:31: And I needed that as well.

00:32:33: It was a breakthrough for me too, because... ...I realized my empathy idea translates to be nice to your clients.

00:32:47: it translates to please your client and at this point i'm not really helping them right?

00:32:54: I wanted them like me.. ..and put empathy on their psychological needs.

00:33:01: I wanted to be liked by my clients and empathy is the perfect tool for that.

00:33:07: Saying fuck you, it's a horrible tool for being liked right?

00:33:11: So... That was the breakthrough for me.

00:33:14: like Empathy in ninety-five percent of cases are super useful.

00:33:20: we just had conversation before started about importance of empathy maybe ninety seven percent or ninety nine percent.

00:33:28: i'm not going talk against empathy But there are some situations when the idea of empathy is holding you back.

00:33:37: So it was basically one of these situations we just talked about where they stand in your way?

00:33:42: Yeah, to the outcome that you would have loved!

00:33:47: Even though I know that answer isn't important.

00:33:49: but what happened

00:33:51: after this conversation?

00:33:52: Well... so.. We're on a street speechless both us And because we were on a friendly basis, We already had the trust between us.

00:34:07: He suggested to... Okay let's sit down and talk instead of going back to office.

00:34:14: I told him look..I didn't plan to say this?

00:34:22: This is why i said it!

00:34:27: finger-pointing and your excuses.

00:34:29: And I really want to help

00:34:30: you.".

00:34:31: He was like, You know what?

00:34:33: You're right!

00:34:35: So that's a breakthrough moment for him... To create new relationship with him and his excuses.

00:34:58: Biography behind that.

00:34:59: Now you're doing the coaching for me?

00:35:01: Good job, yeah!

00:35:03: As I've told you... ...I wanted to be liked by my clients.

00:35:07: That was the main driving force.

00:35:09: I want it.

00:35:09: have new businesses and work with them For a long time And i thought empathy is best way To do this.

00:35:20: And that's wrong because My job isn't being liked By my client And sometimes it takes standing up and saying harsh words.

00:35:32: Radical honesty, sometime is way more important than empathy.

00:35:37: So my job to balance these two things and understand when I'm trying to be empathetic When i am just trying basically please clients.

00:35:46: This where this the biography.

00:35:48: Why was that?

00:35:49: you wanted love?

00:35:55: We're digging very deep now, right?

00:35:56: Yeah

00:35:56: if you feel comfortable with yeah absolutely

00:36:00: I don't think there's a simple answer to that.

00:36:02: Right over simplification doesn't discuss.

00:36:07: it definitely comes from my childhood broken family Some real difficulties between my parents only child.

00:36:17: so i'm pretty sure thats part of the equation.

00:36:20: its Another part of the equation is that I wanted to be successful as a coach.

00:36:28: This was new thing for me back then, and measure of success if they want to continue working with me.

00:36:37: so i have to please them right?

00:36:41: And third element must've been misinterpretation on how to be respectful towards my clients.

00:36:51: I thought respectful means that i'm always talking nice and professional.

00:36:59: But, That's a misinterpretation because it prevents me from being radically honest which my clients appreciate alot more.

00:37:06: so there are several elements i don't want to oversimplify.

00:37:11: There is one horrible aspect about this.

00:37:15: There s young man who wants be loved And he says well the longer my client do booking here My books are.

00:37:25: The better the job is.

00:37:26: I did, yet if you do your job correctly they will leave you.

00:37:33: Your help should be done at some point right?

00:37:34: It's a trap

00:37:35: Absolutely.

00:37:36: You're absolutely right to point it out and i think for many coaches including me there Is a crucial point of understanding when To let your clients go.

00:37:45: When aren't They ready to fly And you might Be holding them back With with your thoughts.

00:37:51: so yeah you're absolutely Right.

00:37:53: What does it do for you too?

00:37:55: How does it feel for you

00:37:57: to let them go?

00:37:59: I think if You ask this question To a twenty something's old It would have been failure.

00:38:07: the answer.

00:38:08: Would that mean II would have felt like I failed.

00:38:13: now, it's a lot more like My clients have graduated.

00:38:18: This is the best way to describe it.

00:38:20: they're ready to enter in new stage.

00:38:23: They have The demons they're fighting, They have been tamed.

00:38:30: So that's sort of a graduation.

00:38:33: My friend who told me the story about the Universal Geniuses She is a psychologist as I said and she always talks about Portal people!

00:38:42: She says there are portals you need to step through And There Are People Who Help You Through These Portals.

00:38:49: But There Also People Like The Endpost In A Video Game To Try To Prevent You From Going Through This Portal.

00:38:55: Hmm, that's a good metaphor.

00:38:57: I like it as well and yeah funny.

00:39:01: So okay i just learned That the one thing um you would have loved to know when You were twenty is?

00:39:05: Is that this that It works This way that believes turn into identity And that these beliefs and this The identity that forms out of this

00:39:13: don't be a prisoner Of your beliefs?

00:39:15: Yeah, I think that and this is Like it's A little bit of a meta approach To Your question because five things five truths basically, right?

00:39:26: And I and this idea that i shared with you don't be a prisoner of your beliefs is Not about the content.

00:39:34: It's not about what are the right truths for you.

00:39:37: it's About What Is Your Relationship To Truths Which Is A very Very Diffic Different Angle A different Approach.

00:39:49: so I was listening to a podcast, it's fascinating.

00:39:52: There are some very interesting eye-opener ideas.

00:39:56: None of them Are universally true and i think one Of the most important questions that everybody should ask is Am i ready To live A life Without Universal Unquestionable Truths?

00:40:16: Because there are no universal unquestionables truths.

00:40:19: The tricky part about this Is I guess it scares the shit out of people, because we

00:40:24: do.

00:40:27: It's so important.

00:40:28: you're absolutely right Joel.

00:40:30: The most important question i asked myself when start a new coaching process is Should I bring this idea into our conversations?

00:40:43: Is my client ready to face the mirror that his or her truth are half-truths.

00:40:53: It's a very important question because some people aren't ready for it, Some people would be shaken to the core and... And Because its long journey to create new relationship with your truth they go back their truths!

00:41:07: What is classified will even more be classified.

00:41:10: So in my work Its essential find right moment To bring this to the open.

00:41:18: Yet the nice part for you is that if this is correct You know, we build up pillars where you put your life on built your live phone and your identity.

00:41:27: And If the inside so far Is that these pillars need to change because For different reasons they might not work for you anymore at a certain point in time.

00:41:36: it means what?

00:41:36: But new ones.

00:41:38: As I said Your demon might return level two or three.

00:41:41: So then Joel has needed again maybe from a different perspective which is quite funny.

00:41:48: Yeah, full stop.

00:41:50: My favorite example for that.

00:41:52: if we were talking about portals I assume you have seen the movie The Matrix?

00:41:57: Yes So there's a most memorable moment in the first Matrix Movie is when Neo starts to see the matrix right...the green code.

00:42:09: This how i describe When people eyes are open To their truths And the limited nature of their truths and beliefs.

00:42:19: Like it's like you start to see The Matrix, your emotions are not You!

00:42:24: Your thoughts Are Not

00:42:25: You!,

00:42:25: Your Beliefs, Your Core Assumptions ARE NOT YOU!.

00:42:28: They're a product Of Social Conditioning.

00:42:31: they serve you well but they should not sit Behind A Steering Wheel.

00:42:36: You Should Sit Behind A steering wheel and that is an amazing moment.

00:42:41: So when someone asks me and clients ask me quite often, what is the happiness thing?

00:42:47: How could I be happy.

00:42:48: I work with a lot of people who are filthy rich And not happy right.

00:42:53: this Is probably The best i could approach that question without oversimplification.

00:43:02: It's like once you're not captive of your thoughts feelings emotions beliefs.

00:43:10: Harvard University professor Robert Kagan calls it the subject-object movement.

00:43:15: If anyone wants to read more about this, that's what I would recommend.

00:43:18: Subject are ideas beliefs emotions that you identify with.

00:43:23: Objects aren't things that you can see from a distance and That move meant is so liberating.

00:43:31: It's uh... It's literally relibrating.

00:43:35: You're not a prisoner anymore And that is just i think probably the best course towards happiness.

00:43:44: I guess this is a magical moment because you're also connecting the dots, everything makes sense from one second to another?

00:43:51: Exactly!

00:43:51: In German we say that the coin has fallen and now it feels like snow from my eyes... This how you say it And i can totally imagine Is there more often than once or in your lifetime thing.

00:44:07: Just understand the mechanics once, now you need to read The Matrix.

00:44:10: or do you really have to say again and again?

00:44:13: I think that first big moment is special.

00:44:19: And it's very memorable for most people.

00:44:21: Most people can remember when i talked with my clients ten years back five years ago.

00:44:27: they were like yeah!

00:44:28: Remember when you told me about this.

00:44:31: but It needs to be reinforced because unconsciously we gravitate back to our old truths.

00:44:38: It's so comfortable, that it is like a safe haven for us especially when in crisis or facing conflicts and under pressure or when we are bullied or feel lost.

00:44:53: We unconsciously immediately rush back into the old truth Because they served comfort.

00:45:02: I heard this that sometimes people tend to stay in a situation That is negative for them, but it's known.

00:45:09: You know how the situation feels and you know what happens there even though It might be harmful.

00:45:14: Do yes like for instance women that gets hit from her husband.

00:45:19: Maybe she got hit when she was a kid.

00:45:21: And now how did no act so that your parents gave her attention whatsoever?

00:45:24: maybe its bad example?

00:45:26: This was actually the situation I came across this.

00:45:29: Why would you stay in that situation?

00:45:30: Because it's familial.

00:45:31: The familiarity, yeah exactly That gives us fake comfort and...that is a psychological need.

00:45:39: Comfort is a crucial psychological need.

00:45:41: Yeah

00:45:43: Does it make difference when we talk about identity formation again if your are traumatized person?

00:45:49: Trauma as word slightly overused to be honest Everyone has trauma right now.

00:45:58: Yet, I realized that it's even sometimes people do not remember stuff.

00:46:02: So their brain even blacks out stuff because it was so horrible.

00:46:06: what happens to them?

00:46:07: Does this make a difference if you have trauma-inducted thing in your mind going

00:46:12: on?".

00:46:15: That is very good question and as an executive coach... ...I don't enter therapy!

00:46:23: It's important for us know our limitations but i'm not a therapist So, I don't assume that i have a ready-to-made answer for you.

00:46:33: What I observed is the calcification of core beliefs... Those beliefs could come from trauma or pain, bullying and abuse Or they can be positive role models like Queen of England.

00:46:53: It doesn't really matter what is the biography.

00:46:57: The process will happen to you, so that would be my answer.

00:47:07: I assume when there's trauma involved and our brain is protecting us as we describe That probably even longer processes.

00:47:17: Because my guess is that in your space successful business people or politicians?

00:47:21: Or top athletes quite often they have trauma, negative situations.

00:47:26: They do absolutely why they want to prove themselves so hard.

00:47:30: Why did you have this extra ordinary drive?

00:47:34: Very something there.

00:47:36: There was something there.

00:47:37: it's dead.

00:47:38: its mom It's the class whatever it is like.

00:47:42: yeah usually extraordinary performances reflect back on very powerful psychological needs that were unmet, unsatisfied.

00:48:09: Was that coming to your mind always, was this yours second?

00:48:18: Yes.

00:48:19: Right now I'm basically whenever i work with an executives... ...I tell them fuck you and talk about their mom.

00:48:28: How would it have left me?

00:48:29: It took one second for the joke.

00:48:32: That's a intense second!

00:48:36: I saw the possibility of being serious.

00:48:41: The process is like.. ..i am aware Once you do enough self-work, and I hope i did enough self work on my relationship to empathy.

00:48:56: And kindness towards people it becomes second nature that You always like.

00:49:03: okay?

00:49:04: I feel a very strong compassion for my client...I want to encourage them!

00:49:10: I Want to support them.

00:49:12: but hang on You know, there's this immediate.

00:49:16: it's like the first voice.

00:49:18: The immediate trigger.

00:49:19: we cannot really control that and you can reach a Level when the second voice will become automatic as well.

00:49:27: Hang on.

00:49:28: This is the empathy voice speaking.

00:49:31: hang-on.

00:49:32: This is they don't be a clown Voice Speaking And then you can just overrule that voice silence That voice if the situation requires for something else.

00:49:43: Now, the funny part about your question was I realized that you actually did two things.

00:49:48: You said a perfect leader looks like what's yours?

00:49:51: Great leaders are.

00:49:52: great

00:49:52: leaders are.

00:49:53: in your case.

00:49:53: He said great trainers are.

00:49:55: yeah then great politicians are so but it contains our basically to thinks It's the noun Like What's The Role We're Talking About?

00:50:02: and Then It's The The Adjective mm-hmm.

00:50:05: What Does This Person Make?

00:50:07: Yeah

00:50:07: How Do Come Always To That Space.

00:50:09: you know Deciding what's the role a person relies with or feels comfortable?

00:50:16: They tell me.

00:50:17: Yeah, yeah

00:50:17: always do comes

00:50:18: from them.

00:50:19: I'm not forcing a roll on them that you are a dad You're leader your communicator Your a podcaster.

00:50:27: What is your identity ?

00:50:28: What describes you best?

00:50:30: And then we work with it.

00:50:32: Because finally Going back to beginning of our talk My one was being adaptable And I come from a situation where as a child, it needed to be very adaptable.

00:50:42: Everything was very uncertain and dangerous in a way... ...and this is why i love to be adaptable So funnily enough.

00:50:49: It's really interesting that you take the role someone identifies with.. ..and then give one objective to it One aspect and it fires back to your own history or development or identity.

00:51:00: That's just interesting!

00:51:01: So fascinating isn't?

00:51:03: How did you come up with it ?

00:51:04: Did you steal it from a philosopher?

00:51:06: or is that like everybody

00:51:08: steals everything in training and coaching, right?

00:51:10: It's like Unfinished sentences started for me as a warm-up exercise in trainings instead of Everybody just introducing themselves.

00:51:23: I offer them five sentences actually five unfinished sentences And they share.

00:51:30: we go around then they shall like.

00:51:32: the first one is always People usually.

00:51:35: That is the most open, unfinished sentence.

00:51:38: you can imagine people usually and then we go about.

00:51:42: great leaders are.

00:51:44: as for me I this is always The Last Sentence.

00:51:48: so We turn the spotlight to themselves And Then it gives a. It's funny Especially when we compare people Usually.

00:51:58: or what Is your answer?

00:51:59: What is my Answer?

00:52:00: oh we've had the same thing.

00:52:01: Oh its very different!

00:52:03: Its Funny but also it gives the trainer a lot of deeper understanding.

00:52:08: who are people in this room.

00:52:11: Are you good at bonding?

00:52:15: Define bonding and define good, I can't answer your question!

00:52:21: Well am i connecting to people?

00:52:22: I hope im good.

00:52:26: Without connecting with other people ,I cannot do my job.

00:52:31: So yeah, it's pretty much essential.

00:52:42: The funny thing is I'm imagining this like you come to a room and I guess quite of your people are easily liking...I think they're easy likable And you connect with them.

00:52:54: but the interesting part Is how much vulnerability do you show them from your side?

00:53:00: You know what i mean.

00:53:01: there levels Of connecting and bonding in way And I even ask myself whether your job prevents you from bonding too intensely on your side because it might interfere with your role.

00:53:13: It does, occasionally and i think this is one of the big questions for coaches and trainers.

00:53:19: how much should I open up?

00:53:21: Does it help?

00:53:22: my client that's...I've seen coaches and and trainers who cannot stop talking about themselves.

00:53:30: so especially when like This is what great leaders are.

00:53:35: And I remember when i was doing a great leader thing, this how it looked like.

00:53:39: and they tell war stories which doesn't really help but only serve their ego right?

00:53:45: So coaches should be mindful of that!

00:54:01: My clients and I think it always, uh... It brings me-it makes me human.

00:54:08: It brings down to the level of we're equals.

00:54:11: We both fuck up so can talk honestly.

00:54:14: Does that make sense?

00:54:14: Yeah totally makes sense.

00:54:16: And my mind just travels through a situation where i was talking with coach and had this impression That he feels great about helping people because its makes him look good.

00:54:29: Do you know what I mean?

00:54:31: Absolutely.

00:54:31: And i think that this is a really, really dangerous way of approaching the job.

00:54:36: Yeah it's self-serving need and... ...I fully agree!

00:54:42: At the beginning in my career.. ..I shared that thing.

00:54:45: Remember when we had this outdoor exercise with a bunch of trainers We did in Spain for a large car manufacturing company.

00:54:56: We did an exercise of climbing up to a pole, the top of the pole and it was a pear exercise.

00:55:02: And I did that exercise before.

00:55:03: It's kind of scary exercise like an eight meter high pole... ...and nobody else did in the group.

00:55:11: So they created pears and walked off and it is fun!

00:55:14: Yeah i've been there done this but we were odd numbers.

00:55:20: so someone needed me help..so had go out And I remember we were close to the top of a pole, and yeah you can go up first.

00:55:32: My partner was like no!

00:55:33: You'll go out first...I've been just on the

00:55:35: top.".

00:55:37: Okay?

00:55:37: Then i got paralyzed.. I could not move for two minutes.

00:55:45: we're holding onto that pole at eight meters high but couldn't move forward despite the fact that did it couple times before.

00:55:54: So finally We jumped off the pole and my mind was racing.

00:56:00: Like, what the hell happened here?

00:56:03: What...what was

00:56:04: that?!

00:56:05: And it took me like about half an hour one hour when we had a debriefing.

00:56:11: remember I'm among trainers right!

00:56:14: And i realized helping others helped me.

00:56:17: so there was self-serving need Very, very selfish I might say.

00:56:24: Like it helps me to help other people It makes...it puts me in a good light!

00:56:29: It make's me feel good about myself and i needed create new relationship with that idea That..I didn't want be lost when im not in the position of helping others And wanted really helpful but am into the position for helping others.

00:56:47: So yeah I feel agree I can relate.

00:56:51: Are you able to take the help of others?

00:56:54: Is this something that we need to learn as a coach, if usually on other side of helping aspect.

00:57:00: I've never seen good coaches who did not have coaching for themselves and i think... We need clarify why are here doing it And go beyond noble answers.

00:57:15: Yeah.. Of course!

00:57:16: It's the betterment of mankind right?

00:57:18: That is what we hear.

00:57:20: No its not.

00:57:21: No, it's not.

00:57:22: There are a lot of selfish elements in that which is fine but you need to be aware right?

00:57:27: That's the thing.

00:57:31: My last question goes into this direction.

00:57:33: How do you know Which string to pull?

00:57:37: because if we're talking about this identity aspect You have your way of doing It so you give role and then you have the unfinished sentences.

00:57:43: Okay, that's clear But still I can imagine sometimes like fishing In The Dark.

00:57:48: And also what's The sign that you know the person is ready to turn the lights into their self, let's look onto them.

00:57:58: That's a very good question Joa and I don't have a simple answer to that.

00:58:02: most of it is Instincts God-feeling.

00:58:08: There are verbal cues Clues like Whenever A client says always or never?

00:58:17: Okay

00:58:20: hard-coded truths here, right?

00:58:24: Germans always are like this.

00:58:27: Vietnamese people never...

00:58:30: however

00:58:30: they finish the sentence.

00:58:32: that is a hardcore truth.

00:58:33: so there's level of thinking when you're captives for your truths.

00:58:39: The stronger you are prisoner to your beliefs more challenging it face reality.

00:58:47: So I need be patient and and the more careful I am about bringing this up, right?

00:58:54: If i hear an executive talking different angles, different perspectives.

00:59:01: About a situation they're in... Different read of their situations, different narratives Then usually that's big green flag so we can bring it again.

00:59:16: What you say is there percentage that you could name, like how many of the people who understand what you just described?

00:59:26: There is research about it.

00:59:29: The percentage

00:59:29: isn't so high!

00:59:31: You want a

00:59:31: guess?!

00:59:32: What would be your educated guess?

00:59:34: Seventeen percent.

00:59:37: One-seven.

00:59:39: Seventeen per cent...

00:59:40: Yeah!!

00:59:41: That's pretty close actually.

00:59:44: It's hard to measure right but there are some researches and the rough number is around fifteen percent.

00:59:52: Depending on a culture, it's very cultural dependent actually because there are some cultures where these are rules you follow the rules You don't stand out right?

01:00:02: And There are Some cultures that they're lot more liberal and flexible and give individual space.

01:00:09: But yeah It's roughly fifteen-ish percent of adults.

01:00:13: we talking about adults here.

01:00:14: crazy

01:00:16: Yeah Humanity has a long journey ahead.

01:00:20: I think that's fair to say.

01:00:22: Yeah, speaking about journeys Jolt i really enjoyed this journey.

01:00:26: thanks alot

01:00:27: my pleasure

01:00:28: and uh...I guess we should talk again soon or later.

01:00:31: That was very joyful.

01:00:31: Thanks!

01:00:32: Looking forward today Thank

01:00:46: you.